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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 14:18:00 GMT
What about the Armenian genocide for example? It doesn't seem like a similar analogy to what you were asking me about; Russians occupying Ireland, presumably deporting or killing all the current occupants, and choosing to adopt Irish culture. I didn't say that! Dam text medium I said they just deported or killed everyone. Of course old building, landscape, environment would continue to exist on a island.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 14:23:56 GMT
It doesn't seem like a similar analogy to what you were asking me about; Russians occupying Ireland, presumably deporting or killing all the current occupants, and choosing to adopt Irish culture. I didn't say that! Dam text medium I said they just deported or killed everyone. Of course old building, landscape, environment would continue to exist on a island. If Russians deported or killed all the Irish and occupied the country instead I would consider Ireland to no longer be Ireland in any meaningful sense. Although the Irish diaspora would still exist and might return to the country in the future. This kind of thing has been reversed in the past.If, in some bizarre twist, they started speaking Irish and playing hurley and watching old reruns of Glenroe and Fair City, and decided they wanted to be called Irish-- well, I guess I would see a historical continuity there. It's a weird idea, though.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 14:29:02 GMT
I didn't say that! Dam text medium I said they just deported or killed everyone. Of course old building, landscape, environment would continue to exist on a island. If Russians deported or killed all the Irish and occupied the country instead I would consider Ireland to no longer be Ireland in any meaningful sense. Although the Irish diaspora would still exist and might return to the country in the future. This kind of thing has been reversed in the past.If, in some bizarre twist, they started speaking Irish and playing hurley and watching old reruns of Glenroe and Fair City, and decided they wanted to be called Irish-- well, I guess I would see a historical continuity there. It's a weird idea, though. So we can agree that being Irish has something to do with the people of Ireland and their culture! We are getting there
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 15:13:19 GMT
If Russians deported or killed all the Irish and occupied the country instead I would consider Ireland to no longer be Ireland in any meaningful sense. Although the Irish diaspora would still exist and might return to the country in the future. This kind of thing has been reversed in the past.If, in some bizarre twist, they started speaking Irish and playing hurley and watching old reruns of Glenroe and Fair City, and decided they wanted to be called Irish-- well, I guess I would see a historical continuity there. It's a weird idea, though. So we can agree that being Irish has something to do with the people of Ireland and their culture! We are getting there Yes, I agree with that. Culture as the basis of nationhood is what I've always believed in!
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2021 16:39:18 GMT
Ireland has changed radically in so many ways in recent decades and much of that change was never consciously voted on or officially announced. The move from a very tightly defined traditional white Christian population where even the new comers were here 4 centuries has given way to an extremely ideologically progressive multicultural society like New Zealand or Canada.
This radical turn about happened largely because of the parts of EU treaties we ignored or rather that politicians assured us would never come true ie that millions of Europeans could come to live here.
To undo or stop this we need to start a debate about re writing our relationship with the EU which has facilitated free movement and has removed our right to control our borders. I don't want Irexit but I do want an end to free movement.
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Post by cato on Oct 9, 2021 11:57:16 GMT
As an aside there were a series of Irish Race Conventions from the 1880s on held mainly abroad in the Irish diaspora in favour of Home Rule and later full independence. The 1896 one in New York received a papal blessing from Leo xiii.
The reason I mention it here is that race in this context was pretty non controversial and seemed to have little "racist" baggage as we would understand the term. In fairness other countries used the term too and it was only post 1945 that the term fell rapidly out of fashion for obvious reasons.
The desire to become an imperial power which has certain racial underpinings is pretty absent from Irish nationalism except for an intriguing suggestion made by Department of External Affairs head Joseph Walshe in 1938 that Ireland should have( an unnamed ) African colony. See History Ireland November 2006. Available on line.
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Post by Séamus on Oct 10, 2021 1:28:03 GMT
I also think culture and religion play a crucial part as well, but! Under your thought process, the native Irish could be removed and be replaced by Russians and they would be Irish? If this was to happen I would say the island is now inhabited by Russians and the island can be called whatever. This is why some say and I would generally agree with (including Jews) that "Jewish" people are a nation in any county they live in. Is the American woman you are married to seems to be part of the Nation or family of America (debatable if this is a nation) and Ireland! If you had children they would be most likely be Irish. Agreed about the skin colour thing Maolsheachlann. Maolsheachlann or anyone else do you have any fears in discussing this topic? She's a VERY patriotic American and I think she would primarily define herself as American. The whole Russian question you pose...these thought experiments seem a bit silly to be. I will go along with the silliness and say that if the Russians were speaking Irish, singing folk ballads, and having full Irish breakfasts they would be Irish. Such things don't happen, change happens gradually. I don't have any fears talking about this topic. The recent proposal- as unlikely as it was- that Hong Kong-Chinese democrats build a city and move en masse to western Ireland might have been a slightly more realistic hypothetical proposition. I suppose the city's Rí would come from the illustrious Hong Kong branch of the Haughey family.
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Post by cato on Oct 10, 2021 8:57:06 GMT
]The recent proposal- as unlikely as it was- that Hong Kong-Chinese democrats build a city and move en masse to western Ireland might have been a slightly more realistic hypothetical proposition. I suppose the city's Rí would come from the illustrious Hong Kong branch of the Haughey family.[/quote]
Most commentators missed the historical precedent for this proposal but would be clear to most Chinese I expect. In the 19th century Western powers forced China to sign over various small territories to Western rule usually on a long term lease. Portugal and the UK were the last to leave in the 1990s.
I know Ireland never had colonies but I am sure some Chinese had a giggle at having a potential land presence so close to the UK. Of course a serious offer would have been declined. Its a matter of national sovereignty after all. Just like the 15% tax rate on foreign companies which we abandoned last week after decades of saying Never!
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Post by Antaine on Oct 10, 2021 9:55:45 GMT
So again, what exactly is the joke?
Ireland is "unique" because it's "mixed", which was clearly not meant as a joke, and is a blatant lie. Ireland is unique because it has Irish people, not because it has Arabs, Asians or Africans, which I can find in their respective parts of the world. Or the idea that a country of mixed people is somehow unique in the entire Western world where this same nonsense is being pushed. As a side-note, I'm not about telling people who they should or shouldn't be with, but are we going to pretend I'm the only one who has noticed that nearly every Irish ad these days has a mixed-race couple? That's not by accident.
That there will be Barak Obamas and Beyonces running around - as if we need anymore race-baiting pieces of crap - suggesting an even larger number of Africans in Ireland; because let's be honest, unless we start having race-quotas (which we already have to a small degree), most of them coming over aren't going to be massive celebrities.
No, it wasn't a joke, unless by that people mean "in-joke" among non-White people about how Whites let themselves be racially replaced and act like nothing is going on; which, by the way, you can see plenty of non-Whites discussing with glee on any major site like Youtube, Facebook, or Twitter, etc. Tick off a non-White person, and watch how quickly they remind you that "you're going extinct and we're taking over." If there's one thing I've learned after watching a few black comedians, concerning jokes about race, it's that the "jokes" in question are thinly veiled resentments wrapped up in a funnily worded covering so that people brush it off as being silly. I would argue an extension of this resentment can be seen in Black Revenge-Porn media - think movies in which a black character (or characters) butcher large numbers of Whites - though it's ok, because usually the White villains said something racist.
What would be the point of the joke if it wasn't rooted in something? It isn't hyperbolic. Anyone getting a bus through town will notice you can't go 2 seconds without seeing a large number of foreigners. But we're supposed to laugh to it off, and act like this was some silly, overly-dramatic statement; and not the truth that we can see unfolding before our very eyes everyday. Nonsense.
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Post by cato on Oct 10, 2021 11:27:36 GMT
So again, what exactly is the joke? Ireland is "unique" because it's "mixed", which was clearly not meant as a joke, and is a blatant lie. Ireland is unique because it has Irish people, not because it has Arabs, Asians or Africans, which I can find in their respective parts of the world. Or the idea that a country of mixed people is somehow unique in the entire Western world where this same nonsense is being pushed. As a side-note, I'm not about telling people who they should or shouldn't be with, but are we going to pretend I'm the only one who has noticed that nearly every Irish ad these days has a mixed-race couple? That's not by accident. That there will be Barak Obamas and Beyonces running around - as if we need anymore race-baiting pieces of crap - suggesting an even larger number of Africans in Ireland; because let's be honest, unless we start having race-quotas (which we already have to a small degree), most of them coming over aren't going to be massive celebrities. No, it wasn't a joke, unless by that people mean "in-joke" among non-White people about how Whites let themselves be racially replaced and act like nothing is going on; which, by the way, you can see plenty of non-Whites discussing with glee on any major site like Youtube, Facebook, or Twitter, etc. Tick off a non-White person, and watch how quickly they remind you that "you're going extinct and we're taking over." If there's one thing I've learned after watching a few black comedians, concerning jokes about race, it's that the "jokes" in question are thinly veiled resentments wrapped up in a funnily worded covering so that people brush it off as being silly. I would argue an extension of this resentment can be seen in Black Revenge-Porn media - think movies in which a black character (or characters) butcher large numbers of Whites - though it's ok, because usually the White villains said something racist. What would be the point of the joke if it wasn't rooted in something? It isn't hyperbolic. Anyone getting a bus through town will notice you can't go 2 seconds without seeing a large number of foreigners. But we're supposed to laugh to it off, and act like this was some silly, overly-dramatic statement; and not the truth that we can see unfolding before our very eyes everyday. Nonsense. The original piece seems to have been taken down from RTE ? or whatever tedious medium put this up originally which suggests they know it crossed a line. It was probably meant to be edgy cutting edge humour but Hector and his pal didn't get the message that humour no longer exists thanks to widespread censorship lest anyone gets offended. I work with a fair share of non Irish and have never come across anti White remarks in person. I see them on social media but I also see all sorts of poisonous venom that I have never come across in normal life. Social media is a cess pit . It's not a good place to judge other groups of people. I don't like the attitude of some new Irish "Influencers" when they accuse us of racism for example if we ask someone where are they from. I am from rural Ireland and get asked this regularly despite living in Dublin for 20 years. Its something we do when we meet new people. If I come into a new society or country I need to have a certain humility and openess to learn. That's how we integrate or learn. Expecting the host society to do all the adapting is condescending and insulting but I don't think it's unreasonable to be courteous and respectful towards newcomers on a personal basis.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 10, 2021 15:53:39 GMT
I've been asked where I'm from originally because my name is too Irish for many Irish people to recognise. I don't get my knickers in a twist.
Race-baiters win when we take the bait. It's exactly what they want.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 10, 2021 16:16:01 GMT
So again, what exactly is the joke? Ireland is "unique" because it's "mixed", which was clearly not meant as a joke, and is a blatant lie. Ireland is unique because it has Irish people, not because it has Arabs, Asians or Africans, which I can find in their respective parts of the world. Or the idea that a country of mixed people is somehow unique in the entire Western world where this same nonsense is being pushed. As a side-note, I'm not about telling people who they should or shouldn't be with, but are we going to pretend I'm the only one who has noticed that nearly every Irish ad these days has a mixed-race couple? That's not by accident. That there will be Barak Obamas and Beyonces running around - as if we need anymore race-baiting pieces of crap - suggesting an even larger number of Africans in Ireland; because let's be honest, unless we start having race-quotas (which we already have to a small degree), most of them coming over aren't going to be massive celebrities. No, it wasn't a joke, unless by that people mean "in-joke" among non-White people about how Whites let themselves be racially replaced and act like nothing is going on; which, by the way, you can see plenty of non-Whites discussing with glee on any major site like Youtube, Facebook, or Twitter, etc. Tick off a non-White person, and watch how quickly they remind you that "you're going extinct and we're taking over." If there's one thing I've learned after watching a few black comedians, concerning jokes about race, it's that the "jokes" in question are thinly veiled resentments wrapped up in a funnily worded covering so that people brush it off as being silly. I would argue an extension of this resentment can be seen in Black Revenge-Porn media - think movies in which a black character (or characters) butcher large numbers of Whites - though it's ok, because usually the White villains said something racist. What would be the point of the joke if it wasn't rooted in something? It isn't hyperbolic. Anyone getting a bus through town will notice you can't go 2 seconds without seeing a large number of foreigners. But we're supposed to laugh to it off, and act like this was some silly, overly-dramatic statement; and not the truth that we can see unfolding before our very eyes everyday. Nonsense. I suppose the joke is that the idea of white people going extinct in Ireland seems so extreme and counterintuitive. It's a stupid joke, not my joke, but I'm guessing that's the joke.
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Post by Antaine on Nov 12, 2021 21:05:51 GMT
Today I had the honour of looking at LinkedIn and seeing a Sri Lankan woman living in Ireland talking about how she finally earned her citizenship after many, many years. This woman seems to be doing well for herself because she talks about privilege and the usual things that are such common talking points in the black community these days. And the kicker? She wasn't brought here by a black family; she was adopted by an Irish family. It's nice to know that members of the black community that were adopted by Irish people, out of their pits for countries, have returned the gratitude by joining the rest of their kin by lecturing white people about everything that's wrong about them.
I particularly liked how she mentioned she was Irish, but simultaneously felt underrepresented - as an "Irish" person in Ireland? Hm.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 12, 2021 21:27:38 GMT
Today I had the honour of looking at LinkedIn and seeing a Sri Lankan woman living in Ireland talking about how she finally earned her citizenship after many, many years. This woman seems to be doing well for herself because she talks about privilege and the usual things that are such common talking points in the black community these days. And the kicker? She wasn't brought here by a black family; she was adopted by an Irish family. It's nice to know that members of the black community that were adopted by Irish people, out of their pits for countries, have returned the gratitude by joining the rest of their kin by lecturing white people about everything that's wrong about them. I particularly liked how she mentioned she was Irish, but simultaneously felt underrepresented - as an "Irish" person in Ireland? Hm. Sounds like a pretty nasty case of ingratitude.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 12, 2021 22:26:21 GMT
Today I had the honour of looking at LinkedIn and seeing a Sri Lankan woman living in Ireland talking about how she finally earned her citizenship after many, many years. This woman seems to be doing well for herself because she talks about privilege and the usual things that are such common talking points in the black community these days. And the kicker? She wasn't brought here by a black family; she was adopted by an Irish family. It's nice to know that members of the black community that were adopted by Irish people, out of their pits for countries, have returned the gratitude by joining the rest of their kin by lecturing white people about everything that's wrong about them. I particularly liked how she mentioned she was Irish, but simultaneously felt underrepresented - as an "Irish" person in Ireland? Hm. I know Antaine has said that he will no longer engage with me (as is his right), but can I make just three points about this: 1. He seems to imply that people adopted by Irish families are not Irish. To give my personal experience on this, one of my cousins was adopted from China as a toddler twenty years ago. She is now a fluent Irish speaker, even getting an Irish-language scholarship (on merit!) and was active in the Irish language society in UCD (Maolsheachlann might even have seen her around!). At this point, she almost certainly has FAR greater ties with Ireland than with China, and as a result, I would not think of her as anything other than Irish. Another lady I dated for a while was also adopted from China as a baby, though she has spent the rest of her life in America. Again, I don't think of her as Chinese but as American. One reason why I reject ethnonationalism is that it implies that both these ladies should return to the country of their birth, even though they are more Irish/American respectively than Chinese, have little or no knowledge of Chinese, and thus would find it very difficult to integrate successfully there. I should point out that at least in the latter case, my former date has shown an interest in her Chinese heritage, and it's actually very common for people with multinational backgrounds to have affinities with all of their countries, so the lady Antaine is talking about might have a point. 2. I would not have considered Sri Lankans to be black, because that designation is usually associated with people of African descent, but rather South Asian, even if they do tend to have darker skin. 3. I would suggest that referring to any country as a "pit" is offensive and such discourse really does nothing to contribute to reasoned debate. Just remember that it was not so long ago that many British people were saying similar things about us. Notice also the implied denial that racism exists in Ireland and that newcomers should shut up, put up and be grateful for being allowed to exist in such a wonderful country, even if they are on occasion the target of racial abuse (which I have seen with my own eyes: I remember seeing an elderly gentleman threatening an Indian with his crutches saying that he didn't like brown people; I did try to intervene before anyone asks btw).
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