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Post by kj on Mar 17, 2023 12:19:11 GMT
Is it somehow a crime for me as a White person to simply not want my people to die and be wiped off the face of the Earth? Who is wiping white people off the face of the earth? Who is wiping out Irish people?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 18, 2023 0:13:12 GMT
I probably should have said that I see the evil of resignation as the lesser evil now. Trying to get back to some sort of ethnic homogeneity, or something close to it, now seems like the greater evil because you're really talking about ethnic cleansing, however that might be accomplished.
And I don't see it as defeatism as much as choosing battles. So Ireland is no longer the sort of ethnostate that it was in 1930 and that our ancestors envisaged during the long struggle for independence. That seems a shame to me, rightly or wrongly. But it's not the end of the world and there are lots of other battles to be fought. The main one (from my perspective) being Christian evangelism. But there are so many others, too.
Thanks for the kind words; obviously I see all our discussions on this forum as friendly discussions.
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eala
Full Member
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Post by eala on Mar 18, 2023 8:42:46 GMT
No doubt not every single Black person is a criminal/rioter/etc. However, Blacks in America do make up about or sometimes more than 50% of violent crimes. Furthermore, it's not just wannabe "gangstas" who are anti-White. There is absolutely no shortage of educated or "intellectual" Blacks who push anti-White rhetoric. These are the kinds of people you will see on tv talking for 5 minutes, but saying absolutely nothing of actual intelligence, but are simply there to talk about "Whiteness" - which, of course, is a bad thing. Or if not on tv, the college campuses, which is where a lot of this seemed to start in the first place (from my own experiences). Furthermore, and I don't suppose it's been discussed on this board yet, there was a survey of sorts done recently in the US, and one question was "Is it ok to be white?" Of the Blacks who answered this question, I believe it was just under 50% said they either didn't know or it wasn't. So nearly half of all Black people. And really consider what's being asked here - not is it better to be White, not even is it good to be White, just is it ok to be. Nearly half of all Blacks surveyed said "no" or "not sure". Well, White people exist, and obviously race is something you can't change. So if you're a White person, and you being White isn't ok, what exactly does that mean for you? The question posed is simply a politer, less aggressive way of asking "Is it ok that White people exist?" If anyone disagrees, I would like to hear the reasoning. You can make an argument about how the results are only this way because of the particular Black people they just happened to ask, but that argument goes two ways. A cartoonist, Scott Adams, then reacted to this by saying Whites should stay away from Blacks. Guess which of these two things the media decided to focus on. In terms of the "Hardware vs Software" analogy, keep in mind that not all Software is compatible with every type of Hardware. Many functions of Software are dependant on the capability of the Hardware. This may come across as a bit extreme, and I agree this example of mine may go too far. However, I'll put it like this. A Windows vs Mac computer. They can both do a lot of the same things, in some ways they are very similar, but there are also differences between them in terms of what software they can or can't use, etc. I don't think human beings are so different that it's utterly impossible for us to co-exist, but the argument that we can replace one race with another and get the same results is just wrong. But even to humour this notion for a moment as being correct, I still have no idea why I, as a White man, should feel any obligation to preserve anything for a group of people that seems keen on displacing and replacing my own. What do I have to gain from that, exactly? Am I supposed to believe the mouthy Black girl with her Nigerian flag on Twitter is going to preserve Ireland as we know it? Nonsense. Maolsheachlann, I appreciate you and I have different views and priorities on the topic, but I find your attitude of "I don't really see the point of fighting it any more" to be too defeatist. This is basically why the Government does whatever it wants in this country. Even concerning things that matter to people, the modern Irish attitude seems to be a shrug of the shoulders, and an "Ah, well, sure what can we do about it now?" God forbid if our own ancestors had such an attitude concerning the British occupation of Ireland. But to respond to something else you said in your comment: "Ultimately, human beings are more important than cultures." This is exactly my point. Well, the difference is I don't think culture is actually all that separate from people. I think different people create different cultures. I think the Arab Spring did a good job at showing that. But that aside, again, why should I see a culture as being more important to me than my own people? Why should my people have to pay the price for others to create their utopia on Earth? I fail to see why, at a time when every other race is paraded around on a pedestal for spouting the most shamelessly racist rhetoric imaginable, it is somehow a crime for me as a White person to simply not want my people to die and be wiped off the face of the Earth? Regarding software, hardware. As you say, your take might be read harshly, or extremely, if someone was minded to. Would you unpack it? Regarding any group with an animus towards Irish culture shouting oppression at every turn: I'm interested in identifying and growing the best in Irish culture. Critical voices from outside can be good, but equity, inclusion, diversity, structural oppression etc, is a procrustean bed.
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Post by Antaine on Mar 25, 2023 19:20:49 GMT
KJ, perhaps the same government that has no money for Irish people, but can magic up both money and houses whenever "refugees" are concerned? Maybe all the people pushing anti-White rhetoric to the point some people are apparently dumb enough to suffer from crippling White guilt? Maybe the people who make a great news story over a White person having a verbal confrontation with a Black person, but have nothing to say about countless videos or stories of Black people viciously assaulting or murdering White people? Maybe the people carrying out such violence (not exclusive to Blacks)? Maybe people demonising White countries for their histories, while ignoring the savagery of their own ancestors? Or the people who come into our countries, get special treatment and still shriek about how racist our countries and people are - many of whom will explicitly state they are "taking over"? Or those who have redefined racism so that it is an exclusively White trait? Please don't tell me you can't see how this all adds up.
Maosheachlann, saying that simply protecting your demographics, starting with protecting borders and removing illegals, will lead to or is akin to ethnic cleansing is just silly. That is something a Left wing person would say. And again, it only ever seems to work in the one direction for some reason. Besides, wouldn't the ethnic cleansing be the thing that is happening to us, since it's our country? In terms of choosing battles, perhaps this is where you show yourself to be the better man than I. I agree there are many battles, but - perhaps selfishly - I feel no obligation to fight these battles in a world where my own people don't exist. I understand that the spiritual battle trumps all, and I understand we are called to rise above the flesh, but I feel no desire to waste time or energy engaging in these battles for the sake of other groups - especially when some of those groups were so hostile to my own. To put it plainly, at that point, I don't have a dog in the race.
Eala, pardon if I seem to be acting obtuse, but are you asking me to elaborate? Concerning the second point, being critical is one thing. If there was a genuine racism putting non-Irish, specifically non-White, people in danger for no reason other than their race, I would agree. However, what we're seeing is outright hostility by people who know they are lying, but do it anyway. What the motives are for each person - special treatment, heroic victim status, money, 5-minutes of fame - who can say? But I do know the consequences are going to lead to Irish people being mentally - maybe even physically - worn down, and I think we're already somewhat there. An e.g., I talked about how BLM slandered this country as racist until they got push-back, at which point it became "Oh no, we mean we want Ireland to be anti-racist." I don't think people appreciate that these attitudes will not become easier for us to deal with as we begin to shrink in our own country.
And for what it's worth - and I do hate saying things like this, as it feels like a subtle attempt at compromising/pandering, but - I do have my own vested interests in not seeing Ireland become a country that is hostile or cruel to non-Irish, and indeed non-White people.
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Post by kj on Mar 26, 2023 8:28:37 GMT
Antaine, thanks for clarifying.
My own views on all this these days are very dependent on my mood. I swing between anger and wistful resignation. This morning, for example, I saw someone post a video of immigrants/asylum seekers rioting in a previously quiet Wexford village. Imagine how that feels for the locals, and the elderly in particular. it made me very angry and helpless.
It seems that in many ways the past five years have seen what amounts to almost a "coup" by the government against the people. It is clear that it is now officially unacceptable to be Irish or proud of being Irish in the traditional sense. It is considered backward, atavistic and to be on "the wrong side of history". Clearly the current administration hates everything traditional about Ireland. Their values seem to be whatever they imagine Brussels and the radical left of the Democrats in Washington would like.
But I would still say the real question is what is to be done? If SF gets into power, will anything change? On the contrary, it seems generally agreed that such policies will be speeded up.
So again, what is to be done? I don't care much for Barrett and some of NP's more extreme policies, but I give them credit for not being afraid to say what they say.
I do also believe that the fact that most Irish people appear to be silent or acquiescent in all this is a major thing that needs consideration. Yes, there are protests; yes, there is online dissent, but the fact is that there are not hundreds of thousands of people out protesting. As long as it stays that way, the government will think that all they need to do is to ride out whatever squalls may appear (such as the Dublin protests) and they will get their way eventually. The sad fact is that they are probably right. We are not like the French with a history of massive civil protest and rioting, for better or for worse.
So again, what is to be done?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 26, 2023 13:32:01 GMT
Yes, I think it would be helpful to know what Antaine means by "preserving your country's racial identity".
I used to say that the important thing was to preserve Ireland's cultural rather than ethnic identity. I've come to realize that even this isn't going to happen. Irish people have no interest in preserving their culture.
I suppose it comes down to how you define your identity. Mine is Catholic above everything else, Irish secondarily. Whiteness doesn't even come into it, it's no more important than shoe size, despite strenuous efforts by the media and other powerful forces to convince me race is important. Antaine, do you think there is a danger you've been race-baited? There's two ways of falling into that trap. One is to become the sort of silly person who apologizes for the colour of his skin. The other is to push back on the grounds of race. The liberals LOVE that. As long as you are talking about race, you're playing their game. What they hate is for people to just refuse to be race-baited.
You can argue against globalization and fight globalization without ever bringing race into it.
Eternity is what matters, ultimately. Immortal souls will still exist when all countries are history.
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Post by kj on Mar 26, 2023 17:33:11 GMT
I used to say that the important thing was to preserve Ireland's cultural rather than ethnic identity. I've come to realize that even this isn't going to happen. Irish people have no interest in preserving their culture. This is the sad truth. 99% of Irish people are not interested in the language or the literature. If some people measure Catholicism by 'bums on seats', then 'protesters on the streets' is surely a way to measure cultural pushback and it is not happening in huge numbers proportionate to the population size.
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Post by Antaine on Apr 2, 2023 11:06:44 GMT
KJ, I am not sure what is to be done, and perhaps there is ultimately no hope. Well, there are things that can be done, but when you are saddled with a political class of useless, self-serving scum, the feasibility of those things seems low. However, I am more of a "go down with the ship" type person. Even if White's are doomed to disappear, I will not stop pointing out the travesty and treachery of the situation. There are no political parties interested in dealing with the problem, that is true. In fact, many in politics are clearly the opposite.
I am glad you put emphasis on the word "appear", as it does get to the heart of the issue as far as I'm concerned. First, I would say a lot more people care about the issue, but either have no idea about the organisation of the opposition, or might be people who have allowed the fear of losing their job/etc get in the way of that. I can understand, especially if someone has a family, of course. Second, in the situations where most people don't have the fear, I put it down to ignorance. If people are being spoon fed lies, nonsense, and hypocrisy, can it be any surprise if they do or don't react a certain way? Some people might even be subconsciously there, understanding on some level something is wrong, but either can't or won't follow through for whatever reason. For e.g., when people are sheltered from the countless stories of women and children being (gang) raped by migrants, but then are exposed to a media parade about some migrant boy who washed up dead on a beach - thanks to his father - naturally, people aren't going to fully grasp the weight of the entire situation. My own parents went to Cologne a couple of years ago, and my dad (at least) was completely oblivious to the story of the Cologne sex attacks. Without rambling on any further, my point being that people's reactions aren't a good judge of the severity of a situation if the media are bastardising reality itself. The majority of people would have no reason to doubt the media, as they see it as just people telling you whatever is going on. They have a naïve understanding of how it all works, and that's not their fault, because why would they suspect any differently? I don't say any of this to look down on people. You don't know what you don't know. And I do understand your point, that if the people don't react a certain way then the politicians will do as they please. But just to make the point it's not proof of whether or not something is important to people.
Maolsheachlann, I don't think the race-baiting argument really works, because it would suggest that being provoked is the end goal. Considering all the things that are happening to White people - violence, demonisation, replacement - I don't see why any of this would be done for the sole purpose of getting a reaction, specifically because it would mean the methods used are worse than the results. If the current situation was simply mockery, trying to get a rise out of White people, I think that would be infinitely preferable to the situation that we have now. You might say White people are being stirred to cause racial tension and division as an end goal, but those things already exist considerably more in non-White people. To say White people shouldn't react, particularly in our own countries, is basically just racial suicide. I can see no other conclusion. No only that, but it is the allowing of genuine evil and injustice to spread, in the form of White people being treated so poorly for things they haven't done wrong, while the reprobates who bring this on us make themselves out to be victims rising against their oppressors. Whatever you think of the topic of race, that is a most twisted form of sheer, unbridled evil. But the final thing is, if White people do simply cease to exist, what is the point of causing racial division? The less races, the less division. This applies to many things. If the whole world decided to be Pro-Life, that is a major division that ceases to exist. If the world decided to oppose LGBT, including people inclined toward that lifestyle, it's one less controversial division. My point is, division only works if you have different parties to form the fragments of said division. If White people don't exist, then it will simply be the non-White people turning on each other; so there will still be division, but not as chaotic given there is less of it, and the remaining people will be more tribalistic and defencive, meaning the sort of tricks used against Whites won't be replicated - both because no other people feels the way we do, and also because our extinction would set a good example for the other races as to why you don't respond in the way we did.
But sure, if the Lord has decided that this is the fate of White people, then there is nothing that can be done. This is how it's supposed to be.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 5, 2023 8:39:55 GMT
I have a lot to say about this but no time right now. It will be a while before I do have time.
But for now I'd just ask, why do you think that there is any danger white people will "simply cease to exist"? This seems extremely far-fetched to me, to put it mildly.
I guess I just don't understand why anyone would embrace skin colour as their identity. Irishness, yes. That has a tradition and a culture and a language and a history. It's deep and meaningful. Catholicism, of course. That's a matter of eternal salvation, the ultimate meaning of life.
Skin colour? It's boring. It's nothing. The idea that I have more in common with some Icelandic or Australian person I've never met, than I do with a non-white person with an Irish accent (and there are plenty of them) just doesn't make sense to me at all.
There's certainly no tradition of racialist thinking in Catholicism. I'd be utterly amazed if anyone could find a single quotation from a saint, Pope, bishop, or prominent spiritual writer which proclaims the need to preserve racial differences. Or in Irish nationalism, either, but I'll grant that probably most Irish nationalists of the past tacitly assumed the Irish would remain genetically much as they are now. There are figures like John Mitchel who did have a racialist tendency. (I'm using the term "racialist" neutrally here, not as a dig.)
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Post by Tomas on Apr 5, 2023 12:11:32 GMT
Came to think of a movie, The Nephew (1998).
A bit tainted by its liberal time but touching on this very topic. Quite good as it was, small reservations made.
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eala
Full Member
Posts: 155
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Post by eala on Apr 22, 2023 16:53:21 GMT
KJ, perhaps the same government that has no money for Irish people, but can magic up both money and houses whenever "refugees" are concerned? Maybe all the people pushing anti-White rhetoric to the point some people are apparently dumb enough to suffer from crippling White guilt? Maybe the people who make a great news story over a White person having a verbal confrontation with a Black person, but have nothing to say about countless videos or stories of Black people viciously assaulting or murdering White people? Maybe the people carrying out such violence (not exclusive to Blacks)? Maybe people demonising White countries for their histories, while ignoring the savagery of their own ancestors? Or the people who come into our countries, get special treatment and still shriek about how racist our countries and people are - many of whom will explicitly state they are "taking over"? Or those who have redefined racism so that it is an exclusively White trait? Please don't tell me you can't see how this all adds up. Maosheachlann, saying that simply protecting your demographics, starting with protecting borders and removing illegals, will lead to or is akin to ethnic cleansing is just silly. That is something a Left wing person would say. And again, it only ever seems to work in the one direction for some reason. Besides, wouldn't the ethnic cleansing be the thing that is happening to us, since it's our country? In terms of choosing battles, perhaps this is where you show yourself to be the better man than I. I agree there are many battles, but - perhaps selfishly - I feel no obligation to fight these battles in a world where my own people don't exist. I understand that the spiritual battle trumps all, and I understand we are called to rise above the flesh, but I feel no desire to waste time or energy engaging in these battles for the sake of other groups - especially when some of those groups were so hostile to my own. To put it plainly, at that point, I don't have a dog in the race. Eala, pardon if I seem to be acting obtuse, but are you asking me to elaborate? Concerning the second point, being critical is one thing. If there was a genuine racism putting non-Irish, specifically non-White, people in danger for no reason other than their race, I would agree. However, what we're seeing is outright hostility by people who know they are lying, but do it anyway. What the motives are for each person - special treatment, heroic victim status, money, 5-minutes of fame - who can say? But I do know the consequences are going to lead to Irish people being mentally - maybe even physically - worn down, and I think we're already somewhat there. An e.g., I talked about how BLM slandered this country as racist until they got push-back, at which point it became "Oh no, we mean we want Ireland to be anti-racist." I don't think people appreciate that these attitudes will not become easier for us to deal with as we begin to shrink in our own country. And for what it's worth - and I do hate saying things like this, as it feels like a subtle attempt at compromising/pandering, but - I do have my own vested interests in not seeing Ireland become a country that is hostile or cruel to non-Irish, and indeed non-White people. Thanks, yes, I was asking you to elaborate. Sure, racebaiting, greivance-mongering, and crybullying have all sorts of ephemeral and enduring payoffs. Hopefully, white Irish people, and people new to the country will remember they are not Americans and this intersectional, BLM etc etc etc is someone else's circus. I hope so, but I'm not sure about this.
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eala
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Post by eala on Jan 7, 2024 23:18:11 GMT
Yes, I think it would be helpful to know what Antaine means by "preserving your country's racial identity". I used to say that the important thing was to preserve Ireland's cultural rather than ethnic identity. I've come to realize that even this isn't going to happen. Irish people have no interest in preserving their culture. I suppose it comes down to how you define your identity. Mine is Catholic above everything else, Irish secondarily. Whiteness doesn't even come into it, it's no more important than shoe size, despite strenuous efforts by the media and other powerful forces to convince me race is important. Antaine, do you think there is a danger you've been race-baited? There's two ways of falling into that trap. One is to become the sort of silly person who apologizes for the colour of his skin. The other is to push back on the grounds of race. The liberals LOVE that. As long as you are talking about race, you're playing their game. What they hate is for people to just refuse to be race-baited. You can argue against globalization and fight globalization without ever bringing race into it. Eternity is what matters, ultimately. Immortal souls will still exist when all countries are history. If the culture is based on Catholicism it can always get an external infusion. Irish on the other hand lives or dies here
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eala
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Post by eala on Jan 7, 2024 23:22:00 GMT
Yes, I think it would be helpful to know what Antaine means by "preserving your country's racial identity". I used to say that the important thing was to preserve Ireland's cultural rather than ethnic identity. I've come to realize that even this isn't going to happen. Irish people have no interest in preserving their culture. I suppose it comes down to how you define your identity. Mine is Catholic above everything else, Irish secondarily. Whiteness doesn't even come into it, it's no more important than shoe size, despite strenuous efforts by the media and other powerful forces to convince me race is important. Antaine, do you think there is a danger you've been race-baited? There's two ways of falling into that trap. One is to become the sort of silly person who apologizes for the colour of his skin. The other is to push back on the grounds of race. The liberals LOVE that. As long as you are talking about race, you're playing their game. What they hate is for people to just refuse to be race-baited. You can argue against globalization and fight globalization without ever bringing race into it. Eternity is what matters, ultimately. Immortal souls will still exist when all countries are history. If collective identity is based on Catholicism it can always get an external infusion. Irish o identity based on Irish on the other hand lives or dies here
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Post by cato on Jan 10, 2024 0:24:30 GMT
If collective identity is based on Catholicism it can always get an external infusion. Irish o identity based on Irish on the other hand lives or dies here I don't agree with this idea that nations are simply a transient passing things and that ultimately souls are the only thing that last. States come and go but distinct peoples or nations do exist. New ones can emerge and some countries like the US are in constant growth and attract people from all over the planet. Nationalism or better Patriotic love of country is related to the gift we all receive from our ancestors, their wisdom, their struggles and their genius. That is not a mere accident of birth. Catholicism is not synonymous with being Irish but there is also a large overlap for many Irish people. Catholicism is also an incarnate religion not something divorced from human cultures or history. There is something divinely gifted in the diversity of historically ancient nations. After our deaths and the Resurrection we hope to be immortal bodies and souls sharers in Christ's divinity. Part of our perfected human nature will include our national qualities?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 10, 2024 11:28:11 GMT
After our deaths and the Resurrection we hope to be immortal bodies and souls sharers in Christ's divinity. Part of our perfected human nature will include our national qualities? I would like to think so, and I am encouraged in this by the Book of Revelation: "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb." But I suppose we really have no idea what Heaven will be like. Let's just pray we all get there.
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