|
Post by Antaine on May 24, 2022 18:02:34 GMT
^Hmm, I thought I responded to this. I haven't been reading any primary sources (or copies of), just articles about them. So, hard to know how completely accurate it all is.
On another note, I'm not sure if this next point fits in this thread best, but I don't think it deserves its own thread and it seems related to more supernatural elements, so-
Has anyone here ever heard that JRR Tolkien described Ireland as being a country that is "naturally evil"? I may as well just quote. This comes from someone by the name of Professor Sayer:
“I’ve gone for one or two walks with Tolkien, and he did talk to me about natural scenes he visited. One of the things I noticed, which surprised me from the start, was the way in which he regarded certain natural scenes as evil.
This came up most strongly after he’d been examining in order — that is to say classifying students in an Irish University according to their achievements in the English language and literature. He described Ireland as a country naturally evil.
He said he could feel evil coming from the earth, from the peat bogs, from the clumps of trees, even from the cliffs, and this evil was only held in check by the great devotion of the southern Irish to their religion. This was a very strange view, and was not one I could even have guessed.”
Tolkien is of course known for talking quite dramatically when discussing nature - as anyone who has read the Lord of the Rings can tell you - but interesting stuff, nonetheless.
|
|
|
Fairies
May 25, 2022 3:52:54 GMT
via mobile
cato likes this
Post by Séamus on May 25, 2022 3:52:54 GMT
^Hmm, I thought I responded to this. I haven't been reading any primary sources (or copies of), just articles about them. So, hard to know how completely accurate it all is. On another note, I'm not sure if this next point fits in this thread best, but I don't think it deserves its own thread and it seems related to more supernatural elements, so- Has anyone here ever heard that JRR Tolkien described Ireland as being a country that is "naturally evil"? I may as well just quote. This comes from someone by the name of Professor Sayer: “I’ve gone for one or two walks with Tolkien, and he did talk to me about natural scenes he visited. One of the things I noticed, which surprised me from the start, was the way in which he regarded certain natural scenes as evil. This came up most strongly after he’d been examining in order — that is to say classifying students in an Irish University according to their achievements in the English language and literature. He described Ireland as a country naturally evil. He said he could feel evil coming from the earth, from the peat bogs, from the clumps of trees, even from the cliffs, and this evil was only held in check by the great devotion of the southern Irish to their religion. This was a very strange view, and was not one I could even have guessed.” Tolkien is of course known for talking quite dramatically when discussing nature - as anyone who has read the Lord of the Rings can tell you - but interesting stuff, nonetheless. After reading a book about Irish folk ways (professor Evans,apparently a Welshman but connected to Queens University) I actually mentioned somewhere here (not this thread) that there seemed to be a resemblance between his Ents and a superstitious belief that some trees ate people that went near them. Might not have entirely been a superstition; originally it was possibly a way of getting young people to avoid lone trees during heavy lightning strikes. I can remember when the method of getting children to refrain from touching discarded combs was to warn that it was planted by a bean sí. Now we have monkeypox.
|
|
|
Post by Antaine on May 27, 2022 22:03:16 GMT
Do you mean Tolkien's Ents were inspired by something from Irish folklore? I'd be surprised. I recently discovered he was not a big fan of the Irish mythology or language. Apparently he saw them as nonsensical or something.
Also, I forgot to mention on my original point, I thought Tolkien's description of the very land of Ireland being evil was interesting, given how many tales there are of old beings fleeing under or being bound to the Earth. There's the belief of the Tuath Dé Danann (or something else) fleeing to the mounds or hills, and I believe Lough Derg has a legend about a great serpent-demon being bound there (with varying details.) If Ireland were a land that, for whatever reason, had a natural draw for unearthly and evil forces, then all the more fascinating it was once known as the Isle of Saints and Scholars.
|
|
|
Fairies
May 28, 2022 4:19:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by Séamus on May 28, 2022 4:19:02 GMT
Do you mean Tolkien's Ents were inspired by something from Irish folklore? I'd be surprised. I recently discovered he was not a big fan of the Irish mythology or language. Apparently he saw them as nonsensical or something. Also, I forgot to mention on my original point, I thought Tolkien's description of the very land of Ireland being evil was interesting, given how many tales there are of old beings fleeing under or being bound to the Earth. There's the belief of the Tuath Dé Danann (or something else) fleeing to the mounds or hills, and I believe Lough Derg has a legend about a great serpent-demon being bound there (with varying details.) If Ireland were a land that, for whatever reason, had a natural draw for unearthly and evil forces, then all the more fascinating it was once known as the Isle of Saints and Scholars. It's just something that came to my mind when reading a chapter quoted on part: "At first sight one may wonder why the thorn tree should have been singled out for for special attention, for it is ubiquitous in the lowland landscapes. The hedgerow thorns, of course, are newcomers and they may be hacked with impunity, but woe to the man who damages a fairy thorn, that is not planted by man but growing on its own in the fields or some ancient cairn or rath...." The bit that had me suspecting lightning strikes... "one should go to the naked hillsides where it stands in splendid isolation...[illustration caption]a cluster of gentle bushes near Slieve Fillion,co.Armagh 'if you were there on the hottest day it would starve you' " A piece that reminded me of the Ents' complaint about orcs' deforestation- "As with the sacred groves of China,not even fallen dead branches which could serve as firewood should be removed. I have known instances when a branch accidentally broken from a fairy thorn was carefully tired back in position" E Estyn Evans was writing in 1957, updated edition 1978
|
|
|
Fairies
Jun 18, 2022 9:11:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by Séamus on Jun 18, 2022 9:11:11 GMT
Do you mean Tolkien's Ents were inspired by something from Irish folklore? I'd be surprised. I recently discovered he was not a big fan of the Irish mythology or language. Apparently he saw them as nonsensical or something. Also, I forgot to mention on my original point, I thought Tolkien's description of the very land of Ireland being evil was interesting, given how many tales there are of old beings fleeing under or being bound to the Earth. There's the belief of the Tuath Dé Danann (or something else) fleeing to the mounds or hills, and I believe Lough Derg has a legend about a great serpent-demon being bound there (with varying details.) If Ireland were a land that, for whatever reason, had a natural draw for unearthly and evil forces, then all the more fascinating it was once known as the Isle of Saints and Scholars. I've been going through a collection of folklore (Irish Fairy Tales ed.jake jackson),not an Irish publication but part of a multiethnic series. Not all of the pieces are written in their traditional form- there are anachronisms,like mention of playing chess in pre-Christian Ireland- but,whether coincidental or not,some points in the story have strong similarities to Middle Earth lore. The story of Conn-Eda of Lough Erne in particular features a warrior steed,the draoidheacht pony,not unlike Shadowfax, an important gem (see Silmarillon), imprisonment on a tower pinnacle and passing through enemy gates (Trilogy also) and the dressing up in animal skin to enter the targeted castle (like an episode in Beren and Lúthien). Another tale speaks of a cat king holding court in a feline castle,an idea identical to one used in earlier drafts of Tolkien's Beren and Lúthien- JRR's.giant cat eventually morphing into Sauron,who was second-fiddle to Morgoth at this stage. The introduction makes mention that most stories were eventually written in the Christian monastic era- given that Tolkien probably turned to Scandinavian tradition, could a Nordic influence have possibly crept into these stories during the Viking era?
|
|
|
Post by Antaine on Jun 19, 2022 12:28:22 GMT
I never read Silmarillion, so I can't speak too much on that, but I do get some of these references.
Do you mean a Nordic influence on the Irish tales?
|
|
|
Fairies
Jun 20, 2022 3:39:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by Séamus on Jun 20, 2022 3:39:11 GMT
I never read Silmarillion, so I can't speak too much on that, but I do get some of these references. Do you mean a Nordic influence on the Irish tales? By the time the monks copied them,just a guess. One story features a little bird that saves the day, like Hobbit and another features a ring that finds it's own way to your finger, but I imagine magic rings are pretty common worldwide.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 20, 2022 9:35:47 GMT
Do you mean Tolkien's Ents were inspired by something from Irish folklore? I'd be surprised. I recently discovered he was not a big fan of the Irish mythology or language. Apparently he saw them as nonsensical or something. Also, I forgot to mention on my original point, I thought Tolkien's description of the very land of Ireland being evil was interesting, given how many tales there are of old beings fleeing under or being bound to the Earth. There's the belief of the Tuath Dé Danann (or something else) fleeing to the mounds or hills, and I believe Lough Derg has a legend about a great serpent-demon being bound there (with varying details.) If Ireland were a land that, for whatever reason, had a natural draw for unearthly and evil forces, then all the more fascinating it was once known as the Isle of Saints and Scholars. It wasn't just Tolkien. Gerard Manly Hopkins took a low view of Irish mythology, as well, considering it ridiculous. And a lot of it is ridiculous, I think we should admit. I know all mythology has ridiculous elements but there seems to be a particularly high percentage of the absurd in Irish mythology. (For a start, the entry requirements for the Fianna: "He must bound over the branches of trees that are the same height as his head from the ground, and stoop under branches as low as his knee without leaving a trembling branch behind him.") I don't think that should prevent us from studying it and drawing on it, though.
|
|
|
Fairies
Jun 21, 2022 10:09:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by Séamus on Jun 21, 2022 10:09:19 GMT
Do you mean Tolkien's Ents were inspired by something from Irish folklore? I'd be surprised. I recently discovered he was not a big fan of the Irish mythology or language. Apparently he saw them as nonsensical or something. Also, I forgot to mention on my original point, I thought Tolkien's description of the very land of Ireland being evil was interesting, given how many tales there are of old beings fleeing under or being bound to the Earth. There's the belief of the Tuath Dé Danann (or something else) fleeing to the mounds or hills, and I believe Lough Derg has a legend about a great serpent-demon being bound there (with varying details.) If Ireland were a land that, for whatever reason, had a natural draw for unearthly and evil forces, then all the more fascinating it was once known as the Isle of Saints and Scholars. It wasn't just Tolkien. Gerard Manly Hopkins took a low view of Irish mythology, as well, considering it ridiculous. And a lot of it is ridiculous, I think we should admit. I know all mythology has ridiculous elements but there seems to be a particularly high percentage of the absurd in Irish mythology. (For a start, the entry requirements for the Fianna: "He must bound over the branches of trees that are the same height as his head from the ground, and stoop under branches as low as his knee without leaving a trembling branch behind him.") I don't think that should prevent us from studying it and drawing on it, though. Hopkins reportedly liked little about Ireland at all. Some of the stories may have been a bit less advanced (as Arthurian legends for example),I won't say 'primitive'- I was given some copies of a travel study of Northern Australian indigenous culture (Yorro Yorro: David Mowaljarlai & Jutta Malnic 1981 originally) and found it disturbing,in a way,that so much of their art and lore concentrates on human genitalia (something I'd perhaps call primitive) - maybe a warning message for modern society; jumping under and over trees is a better sign of literary masculinity.
|
|