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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 25, 2018 12:45:07 GMT
How do you think society should deal with the question of homosexuality?
I'd imagined most if not all on this forum are opposed to same-sex marriage, but what about homosexuality more generally-- in an ideal society, what do you think attitudes on homosexuality should be?
I have a good friend who is a homosexual. He tells me that he was born that way and, if he could take an injection to become heterosexual, he would. It's a difficult question to answer but I do tend to think most homosexuals are innately gay and can't change. (Whether they were born that way is another question.) I think, in the past, homosexuality was considered a deliberate perversion, whereas now most people seem to accept that gay people can't help being attracted to the same sex.
I believe society should be heteronormative and I have no problem with Vladimir Putin's laws against gay propaganda. However, one is left with the question, what level of tolerance should there be for homosexuality?
Most conservatives seem to wish for a pre-sixties dispensation on social issues, but I imagine few of them actually wish homosexuality to be re-criminalized. We tend to fudge the issue a little bit. For instance, Catholics in the public sphere tend to speak as though we are fine with homosexuality but simply opposed to same-sex marriage, or eager to preserve religious freedoms to stick to the traditional Christian view of sexuality. However, Catholicism considers homosexuality to be objectively disordered-- there's no getting away from that, though we tend to downplay it.
(Please note I am posting this in the "speakeasy" section, not the religion section. So while you are perfectly free to appeal to the Bible or Catholic teaching, bear in mind that the public and secular realm is unlikely to accept those arguments in themselves.)
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Post by Stephen on Jul 25, 2018 13:44:55 GMT
How do you think society should deal with the question of homosexuality? I'd imagined most if not all on this forum are opposed to same-sex marriage, but what about homosexuality more generally-- in an ideal society, what do you think attitudes on homosexuality should be? I have a good friend who is a homosexual. He tells me that he was born that way and, if he could take an injection to become heterosexual, he would. It's a difficult question to answer but I do tend to think most homosexuals are innately gay and can't change. (Whether they were born that way is another question.) I think, in the past, homosexuality was considered a deliberate perversion, whereas now most people seem to accept that gay people can't help being attracted to the same sex. I believe society should be heteronormative and I have no problem with Vladimir Putin's laws against gay propaganda. However, one is left with the question, what level of tolerance should there be for homosexuality? Most conservatives seem to wish for a pre-sixties dispensation on social issues, but I imagine few of them actually wish homosexuality to be re-criminalized. We tend to fudge the issue a little bit. For instance, Catholics in the public sphere tend to speak as though we are fine with homosexuality but simply opposed to same-sex marriage, or eager to preserve religious freedoms to stick to the traditional Christian view of sexuality. However, Catholicism considers homosexuality to be objectively disordered-- there's no getting away from that, though we tend to downplay it. (Please note I am posting this in the "speakeasy" section, not the religion section. So while you are perfectly free to appeal to the Bible or Catholic teaching, bear in mind that the public and secular realm is unlikely to accept those arguments in themselves.) I get the public and secular realm is unlikely to accept those arguments in themselves but there is a danger this can be used as a straw man and we don't use the real heavy ammunition.(something the recent referendum has enlightened me on) Criminalisation is an interesting one, but I don't think it really works. I would much prefer if the state to stay out of it generally and if involved encourage Traditional Family values (Also ban external LGBT propaganda) . Local communities should discourage this behaviour and activity discourage The LGBT Ideologies. Same sex attraction is intrinsically disordered and people with these attractions should be encourage with help to practice chastity (Be greatly respected for it). If they continue to live this sin filled life should not be able to hold office or any other respected position in the society. I also have a mate like you and he knows my opinions.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 25, 2018 14:22:17 GMT
I get the public and secular realm is unlikely to accept those arguments in themselves but there is a danger this can be used as a straw man and we don't use the real heavy ammunition.(something the recent referendum has enlightened me on) But what do you say to the homosexual who doesn't believe and who says: "Why should my lifestyle be suppressed because of the doctrine of a religion you can't prove to be true?"
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Post by Stephen on Jul 25, 2018 15:09:43 GMT
I get the public and secular realm is unlikely to accept those arguments in themselves but there is a danger this can be used as a straw man and we don't use the real heavy ammunition.(something the recent referendum has enlightened me on) But what do you say to the homosexual who doesn't believe and who says: "Why should my lifestyle be suppressed because of the doctrine of a religion you can't prove to be true?" I say "I thank God, who does not exist! for evil I'm about to do" and shot him..... Dark humour 🙃. His lifestyle choice should be suppressed. As it has negative effects that cause society to breakdown. I would of course show him the negative effects that homosexuality lifestyle has on society. I would use logical argument and faith based arguments unashamedly ... I'm not going play the liberal game of as long it doesn't hurt someone, people should be allowed to do what ever they want.
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Post by assisi on Jul 25, 2018 16:49:15 GMT
The person who declares themselves a bisexual could be legitimately viewed differently from those who declare themselves gay or lesbian.
There is nothing stopping a bisexual man marrying a woman and having a family. In theory he would have his sexual attractions fulfilled in that marriage as he is (equally?) attracted to women as men.
He would have to suppress acting upon his attractions to men. In a way this is no different to a married heterosexual man who, in staying faithful to his wife, will suppress acting upon attractions to other women (and this can and has been done in many marriages).
But I get the feeling that a bisexual man would argue that, in order to be 'fulfilled' or 'true to his sexuality' he must indulge both preferences. However as a rebuttal of this, if a heterosexual married male can resist the temptation of other women, then why shouldn't a bisexual male resist other males? After all the intensity of the temptation is probably the same in both cases.
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Post by Tomas on Jul 25, 2018 18:26:17 GMT
How do you think society should deal with the question of homosexuality? I'd imagined most if not all on this forum are opposed to same-sex marriage, but what about homosexuality more generally-- in an ideal society, what do you think attitudes on homosexuality should be? (Please note I am posting this in the "speakeasy" section, not the religion section. So while you are perfectly free to appeal to the Bible or Catholic teaching, bear in mind that the public and secular realm is unlikely to accept those arguments in themselves.) Having commented indirectly on that "worst of online discussion topics" once, quite recently on Facebook of all places (where it became a deadening of reasonable words beyond belief when even the holder of the thread felt urged to interrupt a humanely very disturbing "discussion" between me and one such person utterly unwilling to see any good of any kind in my sad questioning) I must conclude that the less said the better in an ideal society. What can be said has already been put down most compassionately in the Cathechism - and even then there could imho be some honest reservations due to reason; not every indication in every scientific field would always agree and thus stipulates not forever unanimously those things as simply "innately" undisputed facts - and for all secular voices who oppose it in all keys on every level (without being open to the opponent view and retorting to pointing finger and saying that YOU who are questioning the lgtb are the extremist, not themselves because they are in the vast majority mind you!) we can just pray for them. All religious critical thinking in public tends to either be or become forbidden so the only pragmatic choice left then may soon enough be only to hold your peace and be silent. Terribly depressing to hear every elite spokesmen just turn a blind eye to the abysmal problems and only let their unnatural putsch for "normalisation" drag on.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 26, 2018 3:30:12 GMT
How do you think society should deal with the question of homosexuality? I'd imagined most if not all on this forum are opposed to same-sex marriage, but what about homosexuality more generally-- in an ideal society, what do you think attitudes on homosexuality should be? I have a good friend who is a homosexual. He tells me that he was born that way and, if he could take an injection to become heterosexual, he would. It's a difficult question to answer but I do tend to think most homosexuals are innately gay and can't change...etc.) The few that I've known are people that I probably wouldn't like anyway. I'm honestly not sure how I'd be with a gay person that I did find likeable. The other thing is:homoerotic behaviour is not out of bounds with a lot of heterosexuals, how deal with someone talking about that?
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Post by Stephen on Jul 26, 2018 7:31:09 GMT
How do you think society should deal with the question of homosexuality? I'd imagined most if not all on this forum are opposed to same-sex marriage, but what about homosexuality more generally-- in an ideal society, what do you think attitudes on homosexuality should be? I have a good friend who is a homosexual. He tells me that he was born that way and, if he could take an injection to become heterosexual, he would. It's a difficult question to answer but I do tend to think most homosexuals are innately gay and can't change...etc.) The few that I've known are people that I probably wouldn't like anyway. I'm honestly not sure how I'd be with a gay person that I did find likeable. The other thing is:homoerotic behaviour is not out of bounds with a lot of heterosexuals, how deal with someone talking about that? It is like having any other friend that is not practicing the Faith. My friend is the most non "gay guy" you could meet and is very kind. Unfortunately you can see he hates himself and God (possibly society) for what he is. What do you mean by homoerotic behaviour?
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Post by Séamus on Jul 26, 2018 11:28:34 GMT
The few that I've known are people that I probably wouldn't like anyway. I'm honestly not sure how I'd be with a gay person that I did find likeable. The other thing is:homoerotic behaviour is not out of bounds with a lot of heterosexuals, how deal with someone talking about that? It is like having any other friend that is not practicing the Faith. My friend is the most non "gay guy" you could meet and is very kind. Unfortunately you can see he hates himself and God (possibly society) for what he is. What do you mean by homoerotic behaviour? Nowadays homosexual acts are not exclusively practised by same-sex attracted people, we're very much back to the ancient Greek-Roman times, where there's evidence that little was out of bounds. It's said to be far from unknown, for one example, among some mining areas in remote areas of Australia, for male-male rape by males who are extremely un-gay and unfeminine. I know of less dramatic situations from friends of friends. And that's without being really 'out there'. Citing rape is an extreme example of course, but it shows far society has gone. Extreme left-wing people are probably more obnoxious, what you say makes sense. Then again, the few gay men I know have extremely disordered minds. I think I would have enjoyed Oscar Wilde as a friend, but I'd never have kept up with the dress code.
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Post by cato on Jul 26, 2018 12:50:56 GMT
A few random thoughts. The whole lgbti label seems to assume that all these various labels are part of a community. Really? All they seem to have in common is that they are not heterosexual. Indeed a group claiming to represent asexuals wants to become part of the above alphabet too. Why would anyone wish to be identified by an sexual urge or desire they don't have?
The sexual revolution has caused the almost universal practice of disordered sex . The use of contraception has rendered most sex sterile and disordered. Adultery ,premarital fornication and masturbation are sexually disordered too in that they can't fulfill the 2 traditional ends of the marital sexual act.
There would also appear to be a major homosexual crisis within the catholic clergy not excluding the Vatican at present though the mainstream media has to date avoided giving this much publicity prefering to highlight the criminal abuse of minors
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 26, 2018 13:11:53 GMT
A few random thoughts. The whole lgbti label seems to assume that all these various labels are part of a community. Really? All they seem to have in common is that they are not heterosexual. Indeed a group claiming to represent asexuals wants to become part of the above alphabet too. Why would anyone wish to be identified by an sexual urge or desire they don't have? The sexual revolution has caused the almost universal practice of disordered sex . The use of contraception has rendered most sex sterile and disordered. Adultery ,premarital fornication and masturbation are sexually disordered too in that they can't fulfill the 2 traditional ends of the marital sexual act. There would also appear to be a major homosexual crisis within the catholic clergy not excluding the Vatican at present though the mainstream media has to date avoided giving this much publicity prefering to highlight the criminal abuse of minors It's true that sexuality is almost universally disordered now. But Christian (or simply traditional) sexual ethics seem especially hard on homosexuals in that there's no legitimate means for them to fulfil their sexual desires. It must be a big challenge...as Stephen says, I have tremendous respect for homosexuals who choose to live a life of chastity. Assisi mentioned bisexuality. I must admit, I'm rather sceptical of its existence. I'm also inclined to think that "transexuality" is simply a mental disorder. However, it would seem that we have always had people who are homosexual by orientation-- although it also seems to me as though the numbers have vastly increased. My father thinks it has something to do with the birth control pill and I think he might be right. Oh, yes, the whole LGBT thing is ridiculous-- I refuse to use the term.
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Post by cato on Jul 26, 2018 17:55:12 GMT
I once accused a friend who was claiming to be bisexual of just being greedy. Although he was annoyed he never denied it!
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Post by Tomas on Jul 26, 2018 19:30:47 GMT
A few random thoughts. The whole lgbti label seems to assume that all these various labels are part of a community. Really? All they seem to have in common is that they are not heterosexual. Indeed a group claiming to represent asexuals wants to become part of the above alphabet too. Why would anyone wish to be identified by an sexual urge or desire they don't have? The sexual revolution has caused the almost universal practice of disordered sex . The use of contraception has rendered most sex sterile and disordered. Adultery ,premarital fornication and masturbation are sexually disordered too in that they can't fulfill the 2 traditional ends of the marital sexual act. There would also appear to be a major homosexual crisis within the catholic clergy not excluding the Vatican at present though the mainstream media has to date avoided giving this much publicity prefering to highlight the criminal abuse of minors Isn´t that wish to be identified either a) a subscription to a global warfare against ordered morality (basically politically motivated) or b) an absurd search/dream/will for personal "fulfilment" or boost in some bad forms of surrogates in replacement to the real old values in True Religion, something by tragedy lost alt never yet found?
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Post by Séamus on Aug 9, 2018 7:41:02 GMT
I only read about the case of the university chaplain in Scotland in a church journal from July that I was handed this morning: "A priest in Scotland has been removed as a university chaplain after he held a service to atone for the 'gross offence' of a gay pride event." From the sounds of it, it was NOT held in a public or ecumenical university chapel. "The decision to remove Fr (Mark) Morris came after he held a prayer service at the Immaculate Heart of Mary Church in Balornock which sought 'reparation for the gross offence to God which is Pride-Glasgow.'.... Glasgow Caledonian University's principal Pamela Gillies said 'following due consultation, Fr Mark Morris will not return to his chaplaincy role'...The university will continue to work with the Archdiocese of Glasgow to continue the provision of chaplaincy" No mention at all of what the diocese says or thinks, although a university Catholic society evidently made a statement saying that they were disappointed.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 9, 2018 7:55:56 GMT
I only read about the case of the university chaplain in Scotland in a church journal from July that I was handed this morning: "A priest in Scotland has been removed as a university chaplain after he held a service to atone for the 'gross offence' of a gay pride event." From the sounds of it, it was NOT held in a public or ecumenical university chapel. "The decision to remove Fr (Mark) Morris came after he held a prayer service at the Immaculate Heart of Mary Church in Balornock which sought 'reparation for the gross offence to God which is Pride-Glasgow.'.... Glasgow Caledonian University's principal Pamela Gillies said 'following due consultation, Fr Mark Morris will not return to his chaplaincy role'...The university will continue to work with the Archdiocese of Glasgow to continue the provision of chaplaincy" No mention at all of what the diocese says or thinks, although a university Catholic society evidently made a statement saying that they were disappointed. I just looked the church up. It definitely DOESN'T seem to be connected at all with the university. (sorry Maolsheachlann,It's actually a '62 missal chapel!)
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