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Post by caritas on May 25, 2017 0:53:09 GMT
I know somebody reading the book who critiques it for it's promotion of Sillon like co operation through ecumenism. I can see how Dreher might be confused as he was brought up Methodist, converted to Catholicism and then left the only Ark of Salvation for the schismatic Orthodox Church, of which he is still a member as far as I know. My experience of the phenomenon being described here is personal. In 2006, after 20 years in the UK, I returned with my wife and daughter to Ireland and settled near a County Longford village where we now live. The idea was to live near a Church where we could go to Mass and receive the sacraments and work with like minded families. Essentially we are talking about a parish life, what my charming American friend Erin calls our parish family. Fr. Morello quoted above says "...the battleground for the Church is in the parish, the setting where witness to faith can make the difference in remaining unified in one faith. The Benedictine Option [sic] is the opposite. It insulates and tends to form communities apt to devolve into exclusivity". There is always the danger of becoming cliquey and closed in, what one friend referred to as a bubble. But the monasteries came into existence for a reason, the collapse of the society surrounding them into chaos. As far as remaining united in 'one faith' is concerned the reason we ended up going to the old rite mass in the first place was the realisation that while we believed Catholic teaching very few of our fellow worshipers did likewise. You can't recite the creed on Sunday with people who all have their fingers crossed behind their back. There is no unity there. Having children surely concentrates the mind when it comes to the Faith and we were clear that what she needed she was not going to get in a city. "And I wish that, in these troubled times, in this degenerate urban atmosphere in which we are living, that you return to the land whenever possible. The land is healthy; the land teaches one to know God; the land draws one to God; it calms temperaments, characters, and encourages the children to work.
And if it is necessary, yes, you yourselves will make the school for your children. If the schools should corrupt your children, what are you going to do? Deliver them to the corrupters? To those who teach these abominable sexual practices in the schools? To the so-called “Catholic” schools run by religious men and women where they simply teach sin? In reality that is what they are teaching to the children: they corrupt them from their tenderest youth. Are you to put up with that? It is inconceivable! Rather that your children be poor—that they be removed from this apparent science that the world possesses—but that they be good children, Christian children, Catholic children, who love their holy religion, who love to pray, and who love to work; children who love the earth which the Good God has made.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 25, 2017 8:47:23 GMT
"You can't recite the creed on Sunday with people who all have their fingers crossed behind their back." That's very well put and I've been feeling this very strongly myself recently.
On the other hand (and I may get eaten alive for saying this). I'm always a bit wary of the possibility of spiritual pride in Traditionalism-- "I thank you, Lord, that I am not like those slobs in the Novus Ordo." I do sometimes sense an attitude like this in some Traditionalist quarters.
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Post by Stephen on May 25, 2017 11:35:43 GMT
Maolsheachlann you bring up a good point "I thank you, Lord, that I am not like those slobs in the Novus Ordo." I will give a shot at trying to address this common accusation/ criticism of Traditional Catholics of being Pharisaical /legalism. Individual Traditionalists like any other have the ability to fall into Pharisaism. I can see how you could argue that person only following regulations with grace could do so and you would be right!!! That being said labelling traditionalists Pharisees is a serious claim as our Lord called them a “brood of vipers” Matt. 22:33. I think most people that call traditionalist Pharisee believe we care about externals, we are all show, rigid and lifeless in our faith.
I think it might be helpful to look at some of the statement our Lord made about these Pharisees. “They do all their deeds to be seen by men” “makes void the word of God through traditions” “They preach, but do not practice” “outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanliness” “Neglected justice, mercy and faith”
I suppose the question I will pose is do Traditionalists behave in this!!
Do they, do their deeds to be seen by men? The answer has to be no!! Take for example the highest focus of the Traditionalists, the Mass. The Latin Mass focuses on God and not man. This is very evident in all aspects of the Mass from celebration facing ad orientam to the consecration. One could argue that the new Mass was designed to be seen by men.
Makes void the word of God through traditions. Christ was accusing the Pharisees of contradicting the commandments to honour one’s mother and father by donating money to the Temple that should have been used of their elderly parents. The problem with say this about traditional Catholic is summed up by St. Edmund Campion’s “In condemning us, you condemn your own ancestors.”
Preach but not practice. Traditionalists, in my opinion, our the most practising group in the World. The sacrifice I see within the traditionalist communities/people is inspiring.
Outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanliness. I have heard it argued that the traditional Mass outwardly appear beautiful with its artistic, architectural and liturgy but inwardly the Mass is empty. This is terribly incorrect!! A Traditionalist is humble as they try to show the breath-taking mystery happening on the altar Finding Fault is not very humble. Which was the main purpose of the 1970 reformers. They taught that Modern man could do better than more than 1500 years of tradition. Who are we to question the doctors and saints of Holy Mother church.
Neglect justice, mercy and faith. This is a consent temptation for us all to fall into the sin of the external and not have an interior. It is not my or anyone else job too. God can only judge the heart of a man, and for this reason, we cannot make any blanket statement about anyone.
Every group has its bad eggs and the accusation is based on the foolish notion that it is wrong to do things right. The reason people I know follow the letter of the law is to help them get to heaven as they are sinful. If a person is living their faith internally and externally it is wrong and uncharitable to be compared to the reprobates who crucified our Lord and saviour.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 25, 2017 14:16:29 GMT
Thanks for that, Stephen. Some good points.
I would never use the term "Pharisee' because it's thrown around so loosely-- I'm well aware that I would be considered a "Pharisee" for being a conservative Catholic in the first place.
Nevertheless this perception of spiritual pride is not something I've picked up from others, it's an impression I get myself. I hasten to add, I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. More through hitting traditionalist websites on the internet while searching for other things.
More than anything else it's thee fact that many traditionalists seem to devote more energy to complaining about the Novus Ordu than praising the Latin Mass. Very often the suggestion seems to be that the N.O. is less than worthless. And that gets my back up because I have no desire to separate myself from the common herd of Catholics.
I work in University College Dublin, where there is a lunch-time Mass during term. It's celebrated by one of the two chaplains, both of whom are very reverential priests who celebrate with considerable solemnity. Both of them preach very supernatural and often evangelistic homilies. The congregation is entirely reverential, always a large number remaining in the pews to pray after the final blessing, silence during the Mass, nobody with their hands in their pockets on the way to communion or any of the things that are supposedly rampant in the Novus Ordo. And yet...I really get the impression that many traditionalists would think it better NOT to attend such a Mass, never mind that there is no possible way I could attend a Latin Mass instead. That's really what galls me!
I should mention, perhaps, that I've had these divided feelings about the Irish language, as well. For years I was anti-Irish language because its advocates were (in my view) so snooty and exclusive and self-satisfied. Eventually I came to agree with them, though. (And I think this attitude is less prevalent now, anyway.)
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Post by seangladium on Jun 5, 2017 4:48:04 GMT
Just over ten years ago my wife and our nine year old daughter came to Ireland to live near other catholic families. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then but I have never regretted the decision and neither has my wife who unlike myself is not Irish. My daughter has grown up surrounded by and immersed in a Catholic culture which is unknown in the local parishes. The centre of our Catholic life was and is not a monastery but a chapel run by the Society of St. Pius X. It is incontrovertible that these small communities need to exist in our time as monasteries were necessary in times past since the surrounding culture is so antipathetic to the Catholic Faith. We also wanted to live a more natural life and we now have pigs, ducks, chickens and grow our own food on a smallholding of 2 acres. There is of course no such thing as paradise on earth but it is possible to live simply and worship with others while being willing to carry the crosses given to us. I certainly see no other way forward for those faithful Catholics today. I have been seriously considering the same thing with my family if I could find a way to do it. Additionally, my wife (who is not Irish) is very interested in working the land to grow food. I would really like for my family to become immersed in a Catholic culture as I feel it is very necessary due to the current mainstream culture. If it was just myself, then I feel that living in the secular world would be acceptable in order to spread the faith to those in much spiritual need. However, I do not want my children to become swept up in the current spiritual malaise found in mainstream culture. I think that finding like-minded families is a plus and that it is important to band together in order to support each other either spiritually, for camaraderie, or even financially to an extent.
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Post by kj on Jun 7, 2017 9:55:35 GMT
This is thusfar the best critique of Dreher that I have come across. It deals firmly with his simplified view of history, his evasion of discussing the intolerance of Eastern Orthodoxy and most importantly for me, the fantasy of "the glorious Middle-Ages" that so many seem to be determined to buy into, and by extension I would say the fantasy that everything was fine and ducky until the Nasty French Revolution came along to destroy the great "Chain of Being" that had been holding everything together as we all sang a Christian form of Kumbaye. amishcatholic.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/benedict-shrugged/
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Post by seangladium on Jun 19, 2017 23:00:58 GMT
I am not very familiar with the following blog, but I noticed there was some commentary on this topic that may be of interest: anti-gnostic.blogspot.com/2017/06/my-problem-with-benedict-option.htmlI especially found of interest the following: "The early Christians practiced their faith and seized the levers of State power as soon as they could. Modern Christianity by contrast practices secularism as the first and greatest Commandment." I suppose that it is true to a large extent that if there is no longer a political element to Christianity then Christians are doomed to be at the mercy of a secular culture that is largely intolerant of Christianity. Secularism being the first and greatest Commandment also unfortunately rings true and this fits within the framework of the progressive paradigm of history as mentioned elsewhere.
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Post by cato on Jun 26, 2017 16:27:17 GMT
I am reading this book at the moment and would encourage people to read it first before reading some of the rather hostile or negative reviews that are circulating.It is thought provoking and well worth a read. I ll post some thoughts when I finish it.
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angelo
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by angelo on Jun 26, 2017 21:21:34 GMT
I am reading this book at the moment and would encourage people to read it first before reading some of the rather hostile or negative reviews that are circulating.It is thought provoking and well worth a read. I ll post some thoughts when I finish it. I completely agree. It is a terrific book that has received too many negative reviews. I am really excited because I am meeting Rod Dreher on Wednesday!
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Post by Stephen on Jun 27, 2017 9:11:50 GMT
Just purchased a copy! Will post a review when I am finished reading
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Post by seangladium on Sept 4, 2018 7:33:33 GMT
I think Dr. Rao makes a valid point about how one should not withdraw from the world amidst all the scandals plaguing the Church at the moment. I have felt rather demoralised lately by much of what is going on with not just these latest developments but in the state of the world in general so I was glad to read this point of view to remind myself to not withdraw. I also found it interesting how he mentions that the monks of Cluny set out from their safe spaces to reoccupy the "public spaces" and convert the local rulers to Christianity; there is a lesson to be learned by their example I think. In regards to the present abuse scandals, there is a real danger that continued silence by all Christians no matter their state in life (whether lay or clergy) will lead to further corruption of morals (and doctrine which in the end is a much bigger problem). I think that is partially how we got to this point in the first place--withdrawal and silence. I am seriously considering writing to my local bishop on this matter (and I have never done that before); however, I am extremely angry at the current deplorable state of affairs!
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Post by Stephen on Sept 4, 2018 8:09:34 GMT
I was not impressed by the book The Benedict Option. Mainly because it was trying to cater to many groups (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) which could not really work. I myself believe that a midway between the Benedict option is the way.
That being said are Children should not be exposed to the indoctrination camps of the State (Includes so-called Catholic Schools)and entertainment industry of the New secular/Liberal religion.
As our Lord said, "He that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it was better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea". (Certain Clergy should be punished this way)
Some then would say, your children will be lambs to the slaughter when they come of age. Children should be nourished in the Faith and be trained to be soldiers of Christ. Ready to do battle with the new Religion.
The cross is steady while the world is turning.
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Post by cato on Sept 4, 2018 10:42:50 GMT
Rod Dreher the author of the Benedict Option is not perfect and his book has many flaws but I cannot think of a single living "ordinary"individual who has done more to stimulate a conservative christian response to the ungodly crisis we in the west now face. He is a prophet in the biblical sense of someone who proclaims loudly a neglected truth.
Whatever we call it we need to strenghten our religious and cultural defences to survive. Dreher makes it clear that mainstream christianity in the west will be dead in a generation or two. That is a sobering claim .
St Benedict is a very worthy patron for a christian resistence movement. We have of course great Irish saints who turned the world of the middle ages around as well. The then Cardinal Ratzinger in the 1980s said the churches greatest witnesses were her artists and her saints.
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Post by cato on Sept 12, 2018 9:00:36 GMT
Rod Dreher is in Italy promoting the Italian translation of the Benedict Option. Archbishop George Ganswuin gave a highly sympathetic response to the book in Rome pointing out its' common ground with the thought of the second Benedict - Pope Emeritus Benedict. In Roman terms endorsing the book publically during the Great Silence of Pope Francis is very significant. Various Jesuit papal propagandists have previously trashed the book.
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angelo
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by angelo on Dec 7, 2018 17:21:15 GMT
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