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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 21, 2017 20:53:07 GMT
I see your point, but my own opinion is quite different... Since I'm a Christian, I desire a public order shaped by Christian values and beliefs, not only for the sake of Christianity but for the sake of society and culture. And although it's true that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church, for the purpose of evangelization I think it's basically a good thing that society should be Christian. I do agree that there is a danger of politicizing Christianity though, thinking in terms of Christian nations and cultures, and forgetting that it actually comes down to souls. Sometimes I get frustrated with arguments about Catholic cultures and Protestant cultures-- it seems to take from the universality of Christianity. I even think Chesterton and Belloc took this too far.
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Post by kj on Nov 21, 2017 21:00:54 GMT
Jesus had no interest in social reform - his eyes were on bigger things. I think too many Christians take refuge in public Christianity, go to church on autopilot on a Sunday, daydream through Mass, bitch about stuff they don't like in the public realm, rinse and repeat.
In my view Christianity is fundamentally eschatological - that's why I never tire of reading about Monasteries and Convents. Monks, Nuns and Hermits are amongst the purest Christians to me. I mean if you truly believed in it, wouldn't you make it the centre of your life and give up everything for it? I believe you touched on this in a recent blog post of yours, about having Jesus at the centre of your thoughts constantly.
I find the obsession of many Christians with having political and social power quite nauseating, to be frank.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 21, 2017 21:05:34 GMT
I do agree that in our time Christianity has become too focused on the worldly as opposed to the otherworldly.
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Post by kj on Nov 21, 2017 21:11:12 GMT
Monks, nuns etc take Jesus at his word - they withdraw from this world, create a separate world where they await either the Second Coming or their own death. That's why they are regarded with awe and veneration, even by many secular people. (I recall that the only time I ever saw the arthouse cinema in Cork sold out, and with people standing at the back, was for the first showing of "Into Great Silence", the amazing documentary about the Carthusian monks.)
I think genuine Christians should take the withdrawal of Christendom as a positive opportunity to re-engage with their own commitment. At no point was I suggesting courting martyrdom, that would be vanity, as well as downright stupid.
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Post by MourningIreland on Nov 21, 2017 22:25:18 GMT
Jesus had no interest in social reform - his eyes were on bigger things. I think too many Christians take refuge in public Christianity, go to church on autopilot on a Sunday, daydream through Mass, bitch about stuff they don't like in the public realm, rinse and repeat. In my view Christianity is fundamentally eschatological - that's why I never tire of reading about Monasteries and Convents. Monks, Nuns and Hermits are amongst the purest Christians to me. I mean if you truly believed in it, wouldn't you make it the centre of your life and give up everything for it? I believe you touched on this in a recent blog post of yours, about having Jesus at the centre of your thoughts constantly. I find the obsession of many Christians with having political and social power quite nauseating, to be frank. Monasticism is only one expression of this. Jesus Christ is very clear that the highest form of Christianity is sacrificial love, which consists of an act of will/acts of will independent of whether or not one lives in a monastery. I say this with no disrespect whatsoever to the monastic vocation which I hold in high regard. Our world is dying not from lack of monasteries but from lack of acts of sacrificial love. I'm not talking about writing a cheque to Trocaire or running a marathon for cancer research. In Ireland, holidays/new cars/homes/sports/"me time"/our own kids is always prioritised to the exclusion of love of neighbour/service to others. The question I hear asked a lot is "Does it make you happy?" which reminds me of Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." If we could turn this around we could turn our country around; it always starts with ourselves, but beyond leading by example and praying for revival, I don't know how to turn things around.
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Post by cato on Nov 21, 2017 22:27:53 GMT
The idea that a monarchy will help in restoring catholic christianity in Ireland doesn't stack up. The church herself has abandoned the alliance of throne and altar for good reason.
Independent 20th Ireland was the most fervent vibrant example of Christendom arguably ever in our history yet it was a frugal popular Republican form of government. No politician or churchman seriously advocated a monarchy was a necessary bulwark against secularism Fascism or Communism.
Even if we managed to miraculously gain a majority who wanted an Ard Ri , we would have absolutely no guarantee King Patrick the First wouldn't be an ideological soul mate of the current occupant of the Aras. None of the surviving monarchs rules over a robust traditional society . Alas.
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Post by MourningIreland on Nov 21, 2017 22:29:18 GMT
I do agree that in our time Christianity has become too focused on the worldly as opposed to the otherworldly. Both "carnal Christianity" and gnosticism are heresies. The Catholic teaching is the sacramental view, where time and eternity meet in the here and now.
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Post by MourningIreland on Nov 21, 2017 22:36:31 GMT
Well, surely there is room for both-- it is a personal relationship with God, but shouldn't it also have a social and cultural dimension? Pope Benedict writes a lot about this in his Introduction to Christianity. It's both - love God with all your heart, soul, and mind + love your neighbour as yourself. Much of Evangelical Protestantism ignores the second commandment, focusing only on "are you saved?" and "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." The Catholic tradition, by contrast, sees the two commandments as closely linked, and, arguably, interdependent. Then you have liberals both Catholic and Protestant who thinks the second means fighting global warming, hating Trump, praising Nelson Mandela, and supporting open borders. Welcome to the Great Apostasy.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 21, 2017 22:39:59 GMT
The idea that a monarchy will help in restoring catholic christianity in Ireland doesn't stack up. The church herself has abandoned the alliance of throne and altar for good reason. Independent 20th Ireland was the most fervent vibrant example of Christendom arguably ever in our history yet it was a frugal popular Republican form of government. No politician or churchman seriously advocated a monarchy was a necessary bulwark against secularism Fascism or Communism. Even if we managed to miraculously gain a majority who wanted an Ard Ri , we would have absolutely no guarantee King Patrick the First wouldn't be an ideological soul mate of the current occupant of the Aras. None of the surviving monarchs rules over a robust traditional society . Alas. Cato, I agree with you that there is no single political order which is essentially Catholic, and that an Irish monarch might well be a raving lefty. I don't think monarchy would be any kind of panacea. I just like the idea of it for its own sake. Christianity seems to have flourished best (in the contemporary developed world) in the distinctly un-ancien regime USA, rather than in Europe. So I don't really think monarchy would be any help in restoring a Catholic culture.
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Post by MourningIreland on Nov 21, 2017 22:42:56 GMT
I wasn't desiring it - I was simply stating facts about Christendom, which are plain for anyone with eyes to see. Religions don't come back once they recede. Who now worships Jupiter and Apollo? My point was that the death of institutional Christendom will facilitate a more authenticity Christianity, as there will be no more social perks or privileges to belonging to the Church. Better quality than quantity, no? You could be right about God. As an Eastern Orthodox friend of mine said to me, "I think God is giving Europe to the Muslims because the Christians have forgotten about Him." Funny you should mention that, because Christianity itself is a very example of an exception to that rule. We lost Western Europe to Pagans, but then we got almost all of Europe, we lost the levant, North Africa and eventually Byzantium, but we gained more than two continents to Christianity. We may have lost our social and legal privliges in Europe on a slow burn over the last two hundred years, but in all likelihood, if Christianity does resurge in Europe, it's likely to resurge in a big way. If for no other reason at least half of it, namely the East, is very likely to keep the faith.Take a look at Dr. Steve Turley's Youtube channel. He is a classical scholar and public intellectual who makes this argument quite convincingly. As a pessimist, I find it hard to get on board with his Tiggery enthusiasm, but I watch his videos anyway in order to learn from him and - well - to keep my spirits up. When my rather average-sized brain requires respite from all the learning the cerebral Dr. Turley shares so generously and I need a pick-me-up, I watch one of the "Trump's best insults" or "Liberal tears" videos, or the acceptance speech where he descends the stairs from the balcony with his family behind to the theme of "Air Force One." That one never gets old for me.
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Post by MourningIreland on Nov 21, 2017 23:02:26 GMT
Silly me, I thought Christianity was about a loving relationship with God - I didn't realise it was a big version of a wargame. Spiritual warfare is a very real phenomenon, and it plays out not just within each individual soul; the Bible is chock full of stories where God chastises His people for apostatising. In Ireland today many who identify as Catholic use amateur mysticism as a rationalisation for self-indulgence that stands in direct opposition to Jesus Christ's clear commandments, probably because so many of them can afford to. I think it would be better if they would just be honest about it by leaving the Church, indulging their material desires, and becoming part-time Yoga instructors or Reiki Masters (come to think of it, that actually describes some of the Catholics I presently know).
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Post by MourningIreland on Nov 21, 2017 23:07:49 GMT
I would say the chances of Europe re-Christening itself are essentially zero. Christendom came and went. I would think that if you're a true believer you should welcome this, as you'll find out just how strong or otherwise your faith is. Christians commonly talk about the purity of the early church - well, in Europe anyway, they'll have a chance to put themselves to the test. KJ, while I am sure your intentions were the best, to accept persecution is Christian but to desire it come about you because of your faith is not exactly the best. Paul chastised several Early Christians for specifically seeking out martyrdom. Thinking Europe has no hope of re-Christianisation is a matter of prudential judgement, to give up on seeking out the re-Christianisation of Europe and embrace being an embattled minority is despair. If the Early Christians had that attitude, the Empire would have never been converted. Have faith and have hope, there are signs here and there that God is not done with us yet.Yes - the earthquakes of 2016, and now an even bigger earthquakes starting. We are watching history unfold, perhaps the battle of all battles and the beginning of sorrows. I pray there are enough of us out there to respond to what is being revealed in order to turn this around +++
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Post by Antaine on Nov 25, 2017 1:45:40 GMT
Well, it is true though. The one positive thing about modern society is that nobody is ashamed to show what kind of things they stand for. Obviously this shamelessness can be a bit disturbing sometimes, but at least you know what you're dealing with with individuals. I'm the kind of person who would rather know the truth and be disturbed, than be lied to into thinking everything is ok.
Sure would be nice if we could have a monarch of some kind, even if not a complete one. Hmm.
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Post by eoghan7 on Nov 25, 2017 6:42:47 GMT
In the wake of the misgovernance of the EU, the idea of a return to monarchy - or at least its re-emergence- is an idea which is being floated abroad. Many other nations still have some form of aristocracy extant, and a few nations have moderate popular support for reinstating disempowered monarchies. Romania is currently toying with the idea of a referendum on that issue, and many Russians want to see the Romanov's return to some role in public life, even if that role isn't what they once had pre-1917. But Irish culture was consumed with aristocracy for centuries, and was benefited by maintaining its own aristocracy, that Republicanism looks like a short blip on the radar. But in that short time, what have we got? Independence from British rule; check. Two Tigers which petered out, the EU, prostration before foreign banks, and a culture which is being imported from the EU and America which is rapidly disintegrating the native culture which had once remained so stalwart against so many years of hard travail. The youth are thoroughly Westernized and homogenized; it's all the same inane monoculture and adherence to the vapid progressivist, secular thinking. There's nothing noble or solid in the culture anymore.
Monarchies, local or national, possess the stuff which can change that. A democratic republic automatically sets the stage for monied interests to ascend to the heights of power; behind the curtains of those they put for election. But a monarchical structure which wields some form of power changes that; they're not up for reelection; they're not beholden to what is fashionable. And there is something worthy of remembering that Heaven itself is a monarchy; whereas hell has cast off that divine order.
Even if we can be pragmatic here and admit that there's no mention of Irish monarchies on the political horizon at this stage, we can realistically see how the finding of clan chiefs would be a huge cultural boon to Ireland, our people and even those living abroad. It would serve to unite people; even those who don't have ancient roots here can form a clan with a declared head. Think of the revived economic interests it could have. Think of the historical preservation efforts which could benefit from efforts from clan societies and chiefs if there was a legitimacy of organization to them.
But the people would have to want this on their own first. And the very first step towards wanting it, is to fly the flag and let it be known that it is possible; not just a dream.
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Post by eoghan7 on Nov 27, 2017 6:47:39 GMT
Can I raise another question on this topic? (Just because there are so many facets to what an Irish monarchy might look like.)
I think ancient Ireland's patchwork of kingdoms was probably something which took a long time to develop naturally, out of the necessity of tribal survival. Over time, these tribal leadership roles took on a formality which was greatly legitimized by the coming of Christianity under various early saints (Sts. Ciaran of Saighir, Palladius, Patrick, Declan, etc.)
I see the path towards modern monarchy as following a similar line: surnames organizing into a functioning body of members who undertake a search for a chief of the name; a chief nominated and ratified by the participating members of said clan; chiefs at first possess no political power but serve as the embodiment of local culture, clan history, and an elevation of humanity, attending cultural/historic preservation events/sites; local sporting competitions, emphasising Gaeilge; then gaining local prominence. The Standing Council of Irish chiefs could then have fresh blood and a renewed sense of purpose. And then comes the legitimacy: the anointing of chiefs by local bishops- not that the bishops bestow power or authority on the chiefs, since that would be sourced from the clan- but they anoint them as symbolic of God's favor (providing that both the bishops and the chief are of the same belief and are fully Christian). Once the Church legitimises them, it no longer is just a group of enthused genealogists. This becomes multidimensional. Over time, clans might even willingly crowdfund halls or designated meeting places where their operations would be centralised; where the chief and his clan council would hold session. Then once enough chiefs become locally active in the life of their clans/county, a body of aristocracy would form, and would be held in common by each clan as a body- not arising out of a central font, as with the British or European monarchs where their king was the origin or font of all nobility. Ours would be again a patchwork of local organizations. Sans the infighting of yesteryore. Does this sound like a feasible option?
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