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Post by kj on Sept 20, 2017 10:12:41 GMT
What do people think of him?
Should we laud him because he is a defender of Russia against the west and Liberal values? Is he the Tsar? Or just another Oriental despot?
Do we take his re-affirmation of Orthodoxy seriously or is it just a calculated political move, or indeed both?
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Post by servantofthechief on Sept 20, 2017 10:43:11 GMT
Honestly I am of the opinion it is both, because Putin has at least admitted he wasn't that faithful for most of his tenure as president and prime minster in previous years yet still promoted Orthodoxy openly. Which meant he deliberately promoted it without doing so out of faith, so it was likely for stability and cultural issues (promoting Christianity would necessarily heal a lot of damage communism inflicted on the country, and is helping turn Russia's birthrates around) and likely shrewd strategy to get Russians to reject Western liberalism. I believe he may convert in Heart if he hasn't done so already, simply because he has no reason not to. He's not quite a tsar, not yet, but he might be remembered as one.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2017 10:52:32 GMT
I believe his conversion was sincere. I listened to him give a speech on the importance of faith, and while I realize speeches don't prove anything, it was quite convincing-- I found it convincing, anyway. That's not to say I don't think he's ruthless, because I believe he is. The Russians, as a people, seem to accept and even demand autocratic leaders. Stalin and Ivan the Terrible are stil hugely popular there. Putin seems to meet this preference. I like him as a defender of the nation state and resister of liberal values. We should note that non-Orthodox evangelization is actually illegal in Russia, so there is certainly a dark side. www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/june/no-evangelizing-outside-of-church-russia-proposes.html
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2017 10:58:13 GMT
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2017 10:59:56 GMT
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Post by Séamus on Sept 20, 2017 12:15:01 GMT
If there was some sort of synthesis of all the good aspects of the Earth's leaders the above-mentioned Earth would be a wonderful place. Putin's promotion of Russian Orthodoxy when compared to growing secularization elsewhere always seems welcome.... For us that don't have to live there. I've wondered in the past whether a lot of the baptisms that took place in former U.S.S.R. following Glasnost were accompanied by any sort of catechesis, but my thinking is only based on one case of that generation I came across, a Moscow-born man (former geological engineer and U2 fan) who hung around a Catholic church several years ago. He was in his late 20s at the time of his baptism towards the end of Gorbachev's reign. By the time we met him he had hiv, which he later lamented was through unprotected gay sex. Lamented that it was unprotected. He didn't seem to quite understand. But he was certain of his Orthodox faith, largely because they had incorrupt Saints.... And equally certain of the Catholic church because we have incorrupt Saints, therefore he was both, he reasoned. I'm not sure if his case was representative of course. The day he was telling a Mercy Sister that he liked "U2-band...U2-band" sticks in my head somehow.
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Post by MourningIreland on Sept 20, 2017 16:09:09 GMT
He is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
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Post by cato on Sept 20, 2017 19:50:48 GMT
Apart from invading Ukrainian terroritory and annexing it and attacking Georgia he seems ok. The last time this happened other than in Soviet times was when Hitler smashed Poland in 1939.
O and all those exercises where he plans thermonuclear strikes against polish and German agression! He is also deliberately stirring up division within Europe and most blatantly in the USA.
Some on the right have a fatal weakness for strongmen "who get things done". Didn't Mussolini fool Churchill, Chesterton and the Catholic Church in the 1920s and 30s?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2017 20:51:30 GMT
The main differences for me are twofold:
1) Mussolini and Hitler were open about their expansionist ambitions. 2) Putin has led Russia for almost two decades now and I don't see any reason to think he has expansionist ambitions beyond controlling the "near abroad"-- the Russian sphere of influence. Which seems a pretty standard expectation in Russia.
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Post by cato on Sept 21, 2017 12:14:54 GMT
The main differences for me are twofold: 1) Mussolini and Hitler were open about their expansionist ambitions. 2) Putin has led Russia for almost two decades now and I don't see any reason to think he has expansionist ambitions beyond controlling the "near abroad"-- the Russian sphere of influence. Which seems a pretty standard expectation in Russia. Hitler constantly lied about his territorial demands . The Duce's imperialism was a joke as he wasn't strong enough to invade anywhere worthwhile. Unfortunately both men were lauded by large swathes of conservative leaning opinion. Putin's sphere of influence was the old soviet bloc. As soon as they gained freedom the bulk of them ran off for some strange reason and joined the EU and NATO. Contrary to the views of some apologists of Putin no one forced them to join . Why is their sovereignty trumphed by Russia's need to have even more territory as a buffer against that invasion Angela Merkel is secretly planning? It is often forgotten Ukraine inherited a share of the USSR nuclear arsenal which it dismantled after guarantees its' borders would be respected by Russia among others. Had they kept their missiles they wouldn't be as easy to bully. Putin doesn't respect weakness. Putin has also openly speculated on the global destruction Russia is capable of. This man is a bully. A bully with a thermonuclear arsenal.
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Post by servantofthechief on Sept 21, 2017 14:53:33 GMT
To be fair with the Ukrainian situation: Part of the deal with letting the Ukraine go after the USSR fell was promises to Russia that neither Ukraine would join NATO nor would it be courted by NATO. Fast forward to the twenty tens and if you didn't think something was up with the Ukrainian revolution, you were not paying attention. The previous democratically elected president was a corrupt asshat, there's no defending him on that, but Russia's motivations during that entire crises vis a vis the embarrassing nakedness with which Western politicians supported and visited Ukraine to support the revolution (I think even Bill Clinton visited them during that time, or was it John Kerry? I forget, some prominent western figure I remember that much) I think its clear to see why Russia did what it did, even going so far as to negotiate a proper deal where the president would step down and not stand for re-election in order to bring peace tot he country and not oust the current regime. Not a week later there was a palace coup, after which the new Ukrainian government went nationalist, pro-EU, Pro-NATO and the eastern Ukrainians who are ethnically, linguistically and culturally Russian started feeling nervous. Its not that Russia is right in that instance, its that no-one is. And I am not about to agree to calling Putin a bully with a thermo-nuclear arsenal after decades of western interventionism and economic tyranny with America's unquestioned hedgemony on the world to compare it to. Putin's open speculation on nuclear destruction is what it is: tough talk and brinkmanship, we've literally seen a half century of such posturing. China does it, America does it, and currently North Korea is doing it but in a much more dangerous way with its missile tests. Given the USSR is gone, and NATO effectively has no reason to have so many American bases in everyone's countries, its understandable Russia feels perpetually threatened and has take what it can get in terms of realpolitik. It isn't moral, it isn't right, but when you're surrounded by NATO bases and constantly at odds with the global monetary hedgemony that controls the worlds only remaining superpower, its understandable. He is not a Hitler, or a Mussolini, he is exactly what Russia has always had: The Russian Strongman. Its really nothing new.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 21, 2017 15:31:13 GMT
I personally think Russia is more concerned about Western encroachment and Muslim terrorism than it is about expansion. The Ukraine and the Georgia situation both involved fairly legitimate claims to be protecting minorities that were Russian or saw Russia as a benefactor. I saw a good lecture by an American professor of foreign affairs who asked his listeners (all American) to imagine the Ukrainian situation as analogous to the Cuban Missile Crisis in reverse. That makes sense. Neocons in America have destabilized so many countries, Putin's anxieties seem reasonable enough.
I admit I am weak on geopolitics, but this is the impression I get.
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Post by cato on Sept 21, 2017 22:49:33 GMT
To be fair with the Ukrainian situation: Part of the deal with letting the Ukraine go after the USSR fell was promises to Russia that neither Ukraine would join NATO nor would it be courted by NATO. Fast forward to the twenty tens and if you didn't think something was up with the Ukrainian revolution, you were not paying attention. The previous democratically elected president was a corrupt asshat, there's no defending him on that, but Russia's motivations during that entire crises vis a vis the embarrassing nakedness with which Western politicians supported and visited Ukraine to support the revolution (I think even Bill Clinton visited them during that time, or was it John Kerry? I forget, some prominent western figure I remember that much) I think its clear to see why Russia did what it did, even going so far as to negotiate a proper deal where the president would step down and not stand for re-election in order to bring peace tot he country and not oust the current regime. Not a week later there was a palace coup, after which the new Ukrainian government went nationalist, pro-EU, Pro-NATO and the eastern Ukrainians who are ethnically, linguistically and culturally Russian started feeling nervous. Its not that Russia is right in that instance, its that no-one is. And I am not about to agree to calling Putin a bully with a thermo-nuclear arsenal after decades of western interventionism and economic tyranny with America's unquestioned hedgemony on the world to compare it to. Putin's open speculation on nuclear destruction is what it is: tough talk and brinkmanship, we've literally seen a half century of such posturing. China does it, America does it, and currently North Korea is doing it but in a much more dangerous way with its missile tests. Given the USSR is gone, and NATO effectively has no reason to have so many American bases in everyone's countries, its understandable Russia feels perpetually threatened and has take what it can get in terms of realpolitik. It isn't moral, it isn't right, but when you're surrounded by NATO bases and constantly at odds with the global monetary hedgemony that controls the worlds only remaining superpower, its understandable. He is not a Hitler, or a Mussolini, he is exactly what Russia has always had: The Russian Strongman. Its really nothing new. It's the leaders with the egos who are making nuclear threats. North Korea, Russia and now sadly the USA . China has up to recently a relatively small defensive detterent and was the only nuclear power with a no first strike policy. Why are people who suffered under communism in the old Warsaw pact and who requested NATO protection ignored? No one forced the Poles the Czechs the Hungarians the Latvians the Bulgarians the lithuanians and the Estonians to join NATO. The west stabbed Poland in the back at Yalta and aĺlowed a shameful surrender of eastern Europe to the tender mercies of Stalin. Some Russophiles seem to think this was somehow ok as it was Russia's backyard. Russia's backyard is not a moral concept nor part of international law. Do Russian diplomats ever talk to western politicians or ordinary citizens? The idea of a western threat from a pacifist Europe is laughable. Similarly the US is stained with its appalling record in "its backyard". It's ridiculous blockade of Cuba is actually keeping a communist regime going. If they want to destroy Castro ii then allow free trade.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 22, 2017 7:03:00 GMT
Apart from invading Ukrainian terroritory and annexing it and attacking Georgia he seems ok. The last time this happened other than in Soviet times was when Hitler smashed Poland in 1939. O and all those exercises where he plans thermonuclear strikes against polish and German agression! He is also deliberately stirring up division within Europe and most blatantly in the USA. Some on the right have a fatal weakness for strongmen "who get things done". Didn't Mussolini fool Churchill, Chesterton and the Catholic Church in the 1920s and 30s? I wanted to address the bit about Chesterton, Churchill and the Catholic Church being fooled by Mussolini. I don't know about Churchill, but I know this isn't true of Chesterton, and I don't think its true of the Church. Yes, the Vatican signed the Lateran Treaty, but this was the resolution of a conflict that predated Mussolini, it wasn't an endorsement. Chesterton's views on Mussolini are outlined in The Resurrection of Rome, and they are far from a ringing affirmation of the Duce. He basically said that the fascist critique of democracy (that it was hostage to vested Interests) had some merit, but that he still favoured democracy because it had at least some objective criterion for who ruled. I often hear this argument that many on the right idolise a "strong man". It may be true in some cases but O don't think its fair in all. I like Putin, with reservations, because I see him as a bulwark against liberal secular globalism. And I don't even see him as being clearly wrong in disputes with the West. Why shouldn't South Ossetia be independent, for instance?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 22, 2017 7:05:28 GMT
I admit I am also a Russophile and this may influence me.
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