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Post by Young Ireland on May 23, 2017 18:02:21 GMT
There have been some recent sympathetic books on Dev . The prolific biographer Anthony Jordan wrote an account focusing on his catholic faith. He has brief account of an alleged vision of Christ that Dev had in Blackrock college. Diarmuid Ferriter and the late Ronan Fanning have produced two broadly positive accounts of his career. The point about Dev dying in penury is one that deserves to be better known. I think representations were made to the government after he retired as he was reluctant to demand a bigger pension for himself. His grave in Glasnevin is remarkably and I think appropriately simple and austere. The founding fathers of the state were not perfect but they were men who saw politics in terms of patriotic service and duty. No gold plated pensions back then. I was a little excessive in speaking as I did. I agree the Ferriter and Jordan books are different and the first especially is an ORIGINAL attempt to search for the truth. Jordan I liked, but it was not quite as original or as probing. As for the Fanning book, I felt it really lacked imagination. It's been a year or two since I read it, but AS I RECALL, the author had little sympathy for so very much that Dev stood for. I recall him being positively antipathetic to the Irish Press and the MacManus bio. And if you are clearly hostile to those things which so exude the early Fianna Fail ethos, how can you really engage with Dev? To get at Dev, you need a sympathetic imagination. That Ferriter has. But without that same sympathetic imagination, Fanning tends to see an egocentric "will to power" in Dev and not much else. I will say something very blunt, probably very excessive and very personal. When I read books like Fanning's and others, I sometimes felt I was almost reading something autistic - incapable of really LISTENING to Dev and, again, sympathetically imagining his ideals. Maybe a bit like many liberal Catholics trying to underttand traditionalists ... Again, I probably need to return to Fanning. This is just me being blunt about a very personal reaction. With all due respect Roger, calling somebody's point of view "autistic" because they disagree with Dev's policies (which were not perfect) is a bit below the belt, not to mention the fact that some of the lurkers here might actually be autistic. I will also say that even when Dev was in power, the glowing view of MacManus certainly wasn't universal, or even dominant: twice Dev went into opposition. You also need to remember that Ireland for many years was divided by the Civil War (which is part of the reason why Catholicism became so popular during that period: it was the only thing that united the two factions), and if anything, the Church would have historically been more sympathetic towards the Pro-Treaty side. Because of this, any biography of Dev will necessarily be partisan depending on the author's point of view. There are two sides to every story, and DeValera's legacy contains both positive and negative aspects, and it is not a good idea to try and overlook either. As for tillage, during WWII, the government made the cultivation of a certain portion of land for tillage compulsory for every farmer. As the soil was simply not suitable for such intensive farming, the resulting wheat was of poor quality and the bread it produced was referred to as black bread. For tillage to be successful, you need to have adequate, but not too much rainfall (as on the West coast) and higher temperatures than what many parts of Ireland can provide. Also, the soil in much of the country is rocky and is suitable only for grazing. I hope this explains why Dev's push for more tillage was always going to be a failure. |
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Post by cato on May 24, 2017 12:11:43 GMT
Generally speaking there is room for sympathetic biographies but the critical ones do have an important role too. Imagine sympathetic biographies of Stalin ,Mao (yes they do exist) or Hitler ( mainly from the 1930s)! Most people would regard these accounts as misleading propaganda.
No one has mentioned the worst Dev biography ever. Tim Pat Coogan's best selling book on De Valera was a nasty hatchet job with little attempt to understand the man. Reading Tim Pat's autobiography recently I was struck by his family's Fine Gael roots , his gradual loss of religious faith , his destructive relationship with alcohol and his long unhappy career with Dev's mouthpiece the Irish Press.
Any thoughts on why despising De Valera is a mark of modern right minded thinking?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 24, 2017 12:26:31 GMT
Why is Dev hated? I think it's a few things. His physical appearance and manner probably grate on people today; he had something of a clerical or schoolmaster air, one of dignity and even hauteur. There is the famous "happy maidens" speech which has become very well-known. And the fact that he dominated post-independence Ireland.
Hard to believe now that he was once regarded as almost a communist!
Personally, I admire his cultural and social programme, while deferring to others on the shortcomings of his economic programme. I don't think those two things necessarily run together. I don't see why we couldn't have had T.K. Whittaker and Sean Lemass's economic programme while continuing to protect and promote a Gaelic, Catholic culture.
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Post by cato on May 25, 2017 20:51:11 GMT
I think your point on his physical appearence is perceptive. Is it only me but do people from the 1930s actually look different or is it something do with how we interact with photographers , changing styles etc ? Perhaps it's their formality versus our more casual style and poses?
Dev looks stern and forbidding and the baby boomers liked fun and informality.Sometimes we do judge by appearences.Collin's his rival will always look young and dashing in comparison. Dying young like JFK means all sorts of hopeful liberal aspirations can be projected onto Collins.The elder Dev is normally seen as an out of touch icon of a previous era.
I think many conservatives of the blueshirt persuasion (I use the term lovingly) also hated Dev with a passion so the prejudice against Dev is not simply an anti conservative sentiment.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 25, 2017 21:03:03 GMT
I've often thought that some faces seem more suited to a particular era. I know some people who look as though they should be in the thirties, forties, or fifties. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Mike Murphy is an example.
Sometimes I've rationalised this by saying we have changing standards of good looks, but that only explains "stars".
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Post by rogerbuck on May 26, 2017 8:02:54 GMT
With all due respect Roger, calling somebody's point of view "autistic" because they disagree with Dev's policies (which were not perfect) is a bit below the belt, not to mention the fact that some of the lurkers here might actually be autistic. I will also say that even when Dev was in power, the glowing view of MacManus certainly wasn't universal, or even dominant: twice Dev went into opposition. You also need to remember that Ireland for many years was divided by the Civil War (which is part of the reason why Catholicism became so popular during that period: it was the only thing that united the two factions), and if anything, the Church would have historically been more sympathetic towards the Pro-Treaty side. Because of this, any biography of Dev will necessarily be partisan depending on the author's point of view. There are two sides to every story, and DeValera's legacy contains both positive and negative aspects, and it is not a good idea to try and overlook either. Two or three quick points on this, Young Ireland. First, I did try to name my reaction as a very personal emotion of mine on reading. But you may still be right I was "below the belt" and I'm sorry if was. That said, I really don't think I was saying that simply because of Fanning etc's "disagree[ment] with Dev's policies" No - I was trying to get at something much, much deeper than simple disagreement. That deeper something seems to be an incapacity to really listen, engage, imagine that I see on so many fronts. Rightly or wrongly, I feel that incapacity quite strong in so much that is written on Dev, but I may need to find better language to express that than "autism". And I certainly agree that we need to read both types of biography, look to both sides. I do try to do this - quite hard, I think. But I guess we can never do it enough. Finally, I do think the MacManus view was fairly dominant, if not universal, just as an opposite one is today. And I want to try at least try to think carefully before getting unconsciously swept up in either of these succssive dominant perspectives. I want to say more to the things you raised, but I will probably be very slow in doing so. |
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Post by rogerbuck on May 26, 2017 8:27:57 GMT
I will also say that even when Dev was in power, the glowing view of MacManus certainly wasn't universal, or even dominant: twice Dev went into opposition. Just a quick addition on this. I am certainly aware of bitter hostility to Dev in his lifetime. And yet the fact that those were very brief periods of very unstable opposition in all those years and oppositions which depended on very strange coalitions with parties like Clann na Poblachta speaks volumes in itself, I think. Thinking on all this, I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive of your views, Young Ireland. It was my sense (right or wrong) of Fanning's dismissiveness that irked me. No need to copy Fanning, if I am right in my perception! |
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Post by Young Ireland on May 28, 2017 21:16:26 GMT
No problem, Roger. As for the Inter-Party coalitions, if Dev's worldview was dominant, I would expect him to frequently get landslide majorities in every election. The fact that these coalitions could form in the first place shows that not everybody agreed with Dev's policies (or at least parts of it). As for Fanning, I suppose my point is that it can be so easy to focus on the end goal that one may not realise the consequences some of the means to that end have on others (this is alas a recurring theme in Irish history). Perhaps I may have taken this too far and allowed my frustrations to get out of hand. If I did, I apologise.
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Post by cato on Jun 16, 2017 17:13:16 GMT
I visited the newly reopened National Gallery in Dublin this afternoon . It has been beautifully renovated and has much more on display than ever before. It really is a triumph for the Gallery. A great place to spend a few hours enjoying what is quite a respectable artistic collection. Mind you they are still hanging paintings , mainly pre 1600s works so it might be best to visit later in the summer .
Kathleen Clarke's works (the wife of Harry Clake)
are the subject of a special exhibition running until mid August . There was a wonderfully laid back relaxed depiction of Eamonn De Valera leaning on a bookcase painted by her in 1927, which has never previously been exhibited publically , which caught my eye . According to the blurb it was never shown as "it was deemed too casual"!
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Post by ZenoOfCitium on Jul 20, 2017 12:35:52 GMT
Revealing that only one currently serving politician has been named on this thread. Aside even from any disagreements over issues, the current Dåil is utterly disappointing in the quality of its members.
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Post by cato on Dec 6, 2017 12:07:15 GMT
The RTE journalist and historian David Mc Cullagh has published the first volumn in his new biography of Eamonn De Valera. The current Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin has critically reviewed it in the Irish Times but I think it is broadly sympathetic to Dev, much more than the notorious hatchet job of Tim Pat Coogan in the 1990s.
It is interesting that historians like Diarmaid Ferriter and Ronan Fanning , neither of whom are conservatives, have produced more balanced sympathetic scholarly accounts in recent years. At the same time Dev is widely seen among the right thinking people as a symbolic hate figure who sums up all that was wrong with the old rural catholic non cafe latte drinking Ireland of the past.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 12:32:33 GMT
The RTE journalist and historian David Mc Cullagh has published the first volumn in his new biography of Eamonn De Valera. The current Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin has critically reviewed it in the Irish Times but I think it is broadly sympathetic to Dev, much more than the notorious hatchet job of Tim Pat Coogan in the 1990s. It is interesting that historians like Diarmaid Ferriter and Ronan Fanning , neither of whom are conservatives, have produced more balanced sympathetic scholarly accounts in recent years. At the same time Dev is widely seen among the right thinking people as a symbolic hate figure who sums up all that was wrong with the old rural catholic non cafe latte drinking Ireland of the past. I've recently morphed from a tea drinker into a coffee drinker. I feel bad about it, since tea seems more traditional and Irish, but I just don't have any appetite for tea any more-- it's not a big enough bang. I wonder how many Fianna Failers would view De Valera with reverence? For that matter, how many Sinn Féin members would look up to Arthur Griffith? How many Fine Gaelers would want a picture of W.T. Cosgrave on their desk? I guess the Labour Party are an exception as they can (and do) still idolize Larkin and Connolly. It's rather ironic that the later Labour leaders were socially less radical than the founders, until the seventies or eighties at least. My vision for Ireland would pretty much align with De Valera's, but I find his about-turn after the Civil War hard to stomach, and he was pretty ruthless towards his former IRA comrades. |
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Post by cato on Dec 6, 2017 13:13:17 GMT
The RTE journalist and historian David Mc Cullagh has published the first volumn in his new biography of Eamonn De Valera. The current Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin has critically reviewed it in the Irish Times but I think it is broadly sympathetic to Dev, much more than the notorious hatchet job of Tim Pat Coogan in the 1990s. It is interesting that historians like Diarmaid Ferriter and Ronan Fanning , neither of whom are conservatives, have produced more balanced sympathetic scholarly accounts in recent years. At the same time Dev is widely seen among the right thinking people as a symbolic hate figure who sums up all that was wrong with the old rural catholic non cafe latte drinking Ireland of the past. I've recently morphed from a tea drinker into a coffee drinker. I feel bad about it, since tea seems more traditional and Irish, but I just don't have any appetite for tea any more-- it's not a big enough bang. I wonder how many Fianna Failers would view De Valera with reverence? For that matter, how many Sinn Féin members would look up to Arthur Griffith? How many Fine Gaelers would want a picture of W.T. Cosgrave on their desk? I guess the Labour Party are an exception as they can (and do) still idolize Larkin and Connolly. It's rather ironic that the later Labour leaders were socially less radical than the founders, until the seventies or eighties at least. My vision for Ireland would pretty much align with De Valera's, but I find his about-turn after the Civil War hard to stomach, and he was pretty ruthless towards his former IRA comrades. His civil war period was indefensible. His later career in office peacefully dismantling the treaty proved the validity of the Collin's stepping stone argument. Dev stirred up the anti treatyites and personally took a minor role in the civil war violence . He made no effort to stop a senseless slaughter to his discredit. The IRA began to believe its' own propaganda and scorned constitutional politics and people like De Valera were sidelined. As for his attitude to his former comrades they believed in a military solution to the partition of Ireland. That sounds familiar. Dev pampered the IRA for a couple of years in the 1930s but realised how dangerous they could be and that they could never be appeased. |
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Post by cato on Dec 6, 2017 13:14:08 GMT
I love coffee .
Earl Grey tea is nice too. 🤗
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Post by Séamus on Jan 11, 2018 6:53:25 GMT
Whatever can be said of the Irish politicians of the present, perhaps someone might wish to look up feniansfestival.com.au , (if anyone has interest in the Irish political convicts in Ireland's past.) (Sorry, I'm not computer literate to include a proper link).
It's ironic that they've started a Fenian festival just as (Fenian escapee) John Boyle O'Reilly's biographer,Tony Evans,a member of the old Ecclesia Dei Latin Mass movement, passed away in Britain., last week in fact.
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