The Destruction of Ireland?

Isn't Britain an example of a country that lost the faith, albeit in the form of pagan invaders?

I don't think it's going to be as absolute as that. Either the secular materialists will give SOME leeway to the Church, in which case I think it's rooted firmly enough to survive in some form, or they will persecute it and-- well, "the blood of the martyrs" and all that.

I can easily, however, imagine a future where Catholic priests have to work another job, the laity have to travel long distances for even Sunday Mass, and Catholicism is like ornithology in termes of its immediate social relevance.

My rather doom laden thread is being discussed above . Can i elaborate a little on my original musings?
There will ,I believe, always be christian believers in Ireland.We often forget there were christian believers before St. Patrick in Ireland but they were in terms of the wider society largely irrelevent. I don't think there will be a literal persecution in the future in Ireland either. Frankly why would the enemies of the church bother? We are divided ,dying off and demoralised.

I think our main chance at recovery or at least holding on lies in turning to our former missionary empire and asking them to return the favour and reconvert the motherland. We need to realise we are in dire straits but God will not abandon us if we respond to him . It seems that many catholics are in denial or believe the current decline will lead to a new lay led (presbyterian?) Church. Hope is not a holy word for pious complacancy.

Yes, I meant the Anglo-Saxons. I do concede the point that they never completely destroyed Christianity in Britain.

I suppose I should explain my own background in this regard. When I became a believing Catholic in 2010 I had an EXTREMELY dark view of Catholicism's future in Ireland. I've come to modify that somewhat, although it's difficult to explain why; a conversation here, a conversation there, little indications. When I started practicing, it was the high tide of the New Atheism, and that seems already to have receded-- this has been the case for several years now. I don't believe Ireland is nearly as materialistic or secular as it seems. Now, I DON'T believe that things are going to be dandy or that the cavalry is going to come riding in just when we need it. I continue to believe the Church will decline, most probably, all through our lifetimes. But I suppose I'm less convinced of the consistency of our opponents than I used to be. I like Chesterton's lines, from the Ballad of the White Horse, spoken by King Alfred (disguised) to the pagan invaders:

On you is fallen the shadow,
And not upon the Name;
That though we scatter and though we fly,
And you hang over us like the sky,
You are more tired of victory,
Than we are tired of shame.

That though you hunt the Christian man
Like a hare on the hill-side,
The hare has still more heart to run
Than you have heart to ride.

That though all lances split on you,
All swords be heaved in vain,
We have more lust again to lose
Than you to win again.

Your lord sits high in the saddle,
A broken-hearted king,
But our king Alfred, lost from fame,
Fallen among foes or bonds of shame,
In I know not what mean trade or name,
Has still some song to sing.


I think this point also applies to Mourning Ireland's argument about the culture in general. I think decadence tends to choke itself eventually. I suppose I would point to the Victorian era in England and the Second Great Awakening in America as examples of idealistic periods that followed decadent periods.

Maolsheachlann's more hopeful outlook has got me thinking . Traditionally followers of St Augustine broadly speaking tend to be pessimists (Pope Benedict?)and followers of St Thomas Aquinas (St John Paul ?) vere in a more optimistic direction. I know this is a simplification but it contains I think a grain of truth.

No one here would deny there is a crisis. One reason for my more negative outlook is that the ghosts of the loony post Vatican ii period have been resurrected dismaying most conservative catholics who presumed the Zombies were gone and that the new pastoral strategy of the church seems to be Anglicanism with a few Roman ingredients added on.

One of the facts rarely mentioned in regard to the current papacy is that the number of priestly vocations globally is falling again. I believe there was a growing number under the two previous pontiffs.

Great thread. I have regretted being away from this forum ...

Will respond by saying that, like you, Maolsheachlann, I am also much more hopeful than I was and like you, it is not so easy to explain why. But I factorin two things:

1) The state of the Church today being better, I think than it appears - and also

2) I find myself more and more faith in Ireland herself.

Let me start with point number two and what I think you you are getting at here MourningIreland:





For years, I was very gloomy about the last point . I thought the "€€€€€€€ and the $$$$$$$" were just too powerful. That, plus the linguistic openness to Anglo-American culture. Really, I was close to despair. I felt the latter in particular might just be too powerful. From living in Spain, I could see how Catholicism could be much more easily preserved there than in Ireland.

But as the years go on, something happens to me. Something ineffable, some might say superstitious or mystical . . .

I feel more and more, that those 800 years or 1600 years since St. Patrick are more ANCHORED in the Irish psyche, even in the Irish soil, than anyone can empirically measure. So I can't argue for this. I just report a growing subjective faith in IRELAND, despite the terrible challenges of being so locked into London and Wall Street/New York and (in my view, to a lesser extent) Brussels.

I am moved to see your growing hope, Maolsheachlann, even in Dublin! And up here in the North, it feels very, very different.

Personally, I pray every Rosary for Irish re-unification. If that does happen in my lifetime, I will have even greater hope, despite all the terrible things that may well happen. I say that because the infusion of the much more conservative North - with something like 1.8 million people - into the 4.8 million of the Republic would make an enormous difference. I do imagine, for example, that things like the Eighth Amendment might be saved if by any MIRACLE something like that happened soon.

A friend I greatly respect said that this hypothetical scenario would only slow down the change in Ireland - but then he added a key line, something like: "Maybe it would slow it down till the Cavalry arrived ..."

Well, I am sounding giddily, crazily optimistic here, I know. But I am open to the idea that the Calvary just COULD arrive.

And this is related to my first point above - about my growing faith in the Church.

For really, I do think the present direction of the Vatican is like "artificial life support" for liberal Catholicism. I'll try to say more about that later, but will just note for now that I do go into my hope for the regeneration of the Church in my latest video which I will link to in the thread about my new Youtube Channel.

What would individual or collective (re)conversion spring from?  Compelling arguments? Contagious zeal? Expediency?

6 years after this thread started its interesting to look back on who said what. 3 things strike me immediately.

The experience of Covid hit the Church hard in terms of abyssmal pastoral response from the clergy. The closing down of sacramental access for long periods caused many people to never come back. I think it's as high as one third abandoned the faith in that period seemingly without much anguish.

Wokery/trans ideas has captured much of the culture and large swathes of young people who in previous times would be in seminaries and convents. Youthful enthusiastic and idealism doesn't disappear but it can be channeled in sinister ways Think of Maos murderous Red Guards , the Hitler Youth etc.


The self destructing impulses of formal Catholicism is absolutely clear for any one to see. This papacy has attempted to reignite the 1970s Ecclesiastical revolution. Doctrinally and pastorally we are in chaos.