|
|
Post by connacht4096 on Feb 22, 2023 19:30:02 GMT
hello everyone; I took a break from this site for a while as I do with just about every website i have ever frequented. but I am back and have an interisting question. "what is the most disasterously implemented idea you have ever seen?". let me clarify what I mean by this. I mean something you agree with in theory, and would maybe even support other aproaches to; or at least don't really mind in theory, but which are done in an awfull way. I am asking about things done by people who clearly had no idea how to do the thing they wanted to do; things that happened under exceptionally inopurtune circumstances; or which had unintended consequences that could have been guarded against but were not; or which was carried out in a ridiculous manner; or similar consequences. in short I am curious about things you support doing but think the precedent on how is a warning. what is the most extreme example of things like that you have come across? for me; though you may disagree; I would have to say Brexit.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Feb 23, 2023 8:27:54 GMT
hello everyone; I took a break from this site for a while as I do with just about every website i have ever frequented. but I am back and have an interisting question. "what is the most disasterously implemented idea you have ever seen?". let me clarify what I mean by this. I mean something you agree with in theory, and would maybe even support other aproaches to; or at least don't really mind in theory, but which are done in an awfull way. I am asking about things done by people who clearly had no idea how to do the thing they wanted to do; things that happened under exceptionally inopurtune circumstances; or which had unintended consequences that could have been guarded against but were not; or which was carried out in a ridiculous manner; or similar consequences. in short I am curious about things you support doing but think the precedent on how is a warning. what is the most extreme example of things like that you have come across? for me; though you may disagree; I would have to say Brexit. Bringing unity in Holy Mother Church, or consolidating it, by the means to impose stark opposite harsh targeting of the various Catholics closest to the holy traditional Latin Liturgy! |
|
|
|
Post by cato on Feb 23, 2023 9:56:21 GMT
I would agree with Connacht above that Brexit has been pretty disappointing to date from the point of view of a Nationalist tradition leaning perspective. Perhaps its too early to say. There are very powerful forces determined to see Brexit fail spectacularly as it is a direct challenge to the progressive world view.
I sympathise with Tomas but I doubt the current petty tyrannical anti traditional liturgy campaign ever had anything to do with unity.
|
|
|
|
Post by cato on Feb 23, 2023 10:01:52 GMT
I would suggest the current papacy has been the greatest disastrous project in many centuries. There is desperate need for reform in Catholicism but many of the financial and abuse scandals have worsened and we live in unprecedented doctrinal chaos linked to cosying up to traditional opponents of Christianity.
I am beginning to believe the whole conciliar project , well intended (I still believe that!) has been a disaster as implemented. I do accept that some and theological insights were welcome and beneficial. Some councils have failed in the past this may be one of them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 23, 2023 10:24:49 GMT
Our St. Patrick's Day celebrations!
Almost every contemporary effort to promote or popularize poetry. My own workplace does a lot of this, for instance, a "Poetry Reading Archive" in which are kept recordings of various contemporary poets reading their poetry, or occasional poetry readings. To some extent I feel that ANY poetry is better than no poetry. However, most contemporary poetry is so truly awful that it can hardly be called poetry at all. It's sometimes occurred to me that it really doesn't matter what gets pushed as poetry, once the box has been ticked; at least, that seems the attitude. Nobody really expects anyone to read it, listen to it, or enjoy it.
|
|
|
|
Post by connacht4096 on Mar 6, 2023 21:17:06 GMT
all of your awensers are fascinating; so far; to be fair on the example I cited; it did spawn an absolutely histarical satirical headline at one point.
|
|
|
|
Post by cato on Mar 7, 2023 12:34:11 GMT
all of your awensers are fascinating; so far; to be fair on the example I cited; it did spawn an absolutely histarical satirical headline at one point. The implementation of compulsory Irish since 1922 in the Irish state would be another prominent example. |
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 7, 2023 15:41:03 GMT
all of your awensers are fascinating; so far; to be fair on the example I cited; it did spawn an absolutely histarical satirical headline at one point. The implementation of compulsory Irish since 1922 in the Irish state would be another prominent example. I'm not sure I agree on this one. I don't think Irish would have survived as well as it has without compulsory Irish. It means, of course, that many schoolchildren hate it while being forced to learn it. But very often they come to appreciate it later, or even if they don't, they know a bit of it. I experienced both these states! I attended a conference in UCD in December of last year marking the foundation of the state. One session was completely in Irish, and it's interesting that all the speakers praised the achievements of the State in preserving Irish. A bit of a departure from the past, when Irish language enthusiasts were always moaning that not enough was done. |
|
|
|
Post by connacht4096 on Mar 8, 2023 16:33:20 GMT
The implementation of compulsory Irish since 1922 in the Irish state would be another prominent example. I'm not sure I agree on this one. I don't think Irish would have survived as well as it has without compulsory Irish. It means, of course, that many schoolchildren hate it while being forced to learn it. But very often they come to appreciate it later, or even if they don't, they know a bit of it. I experienced both these states! I attended a conference in UCD in December of last year marking the foundation of the state. One session was completely in Irish, and it's interesting that all the speakers praised the achievements of the State in preserving Irish. A bit of a departure from the past, when Irish language enthusiasts were always moaning that not enough was done. same type of thinking; just to be clear I don't think the mandatory Irish is necessarily a great thing in principle; however, I think it is justified by particular circumstances; and so would never tamper with it; except to strengthen it of course. my grandma said "Irish is mandatory in the schools because if it were not; it might be a dead language." some things are not good in principle but are wholly justified in particular circumstances. if the day comes when it is no longer necessary (read a majority of the population are native speakers of Irish; and the number is not declining; so basically the language policy our constitution indicates we have on paper; but implemented on the ground); I would be willing to get rid of it; but I regard anything that could weaken it as treasonous for as long as the circumstances that gave birth to it persist. though proposals for better methods of teaching it are something I am more then willing to hear; and may even support depending on the details. the Irish Language is very important to me; and when I advocate harsh and dictatorial methods to increase the use of the language it is because I sometimes have doubts about its survival any other way; would not propose those in a perfect world; but in a perfect world Irish would not be in danger. |
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Mar 9, 2023 9:35:35 GMT
The implementation of compulsory Irish since 1922 in the Irish state would be another prominent example. I'm not sure I agree on this one. I don't think Irish would have survived as well as it has without compulsory Irish. It means, of course, that many schoolchildren hate it while being forced to learn it. But very often they come to appreciate it later, or even if they don't, they know a bit of it. I experienced both these states! I attended a conference in UCD in December of last year marking the foundation of the state. One session was completely in Irish, and it's interesting that all the speakers praised the achievements of the State in preserving Irish. A bit of a departure from the past, when Irish language enthusiasts were always moaning that not enough was done. Interesting. Probably exactly right, without it the situation may have been precarious (socially). If the idea was to succeed entirely or bring it alive for the majority it failed, yet it didn´t fail in keeping it surviving. |
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 9, 2023 11:22:17 GMT
I'm not sure I agree on this one. I don't think Irish would have survived as well as it has without compulsory Irish. It means, of course, that many schoolchildren hate it while being forced to learn it. But very often they come to appreciate it later, or even if they don't, they know a bit of it. I experienced both these states! I attended a conference in UCD in December of last year marking the foundation of the state. One session was completely in Irish, and it's interesting that all the speakers praised the achievements of the State in preserving Irish. A bit of a departure from the past, when Irish language enthusiasts were always moaning that not enough was done. Interesting. Probably exactly right, without it the situation may have been precarious (socially). If the idea was to succeed entirely or bring it alive for the majority it failed, yet it didn´t fail in keeping it surviving. Ultimately, I think, the Irish people are to blame for not reviving the Irish language as the spoken language of everyday life. The government can only do so much. If Irish people really wanted it, it would happen. For the same reason, I think Connacht's proposal of dictatorial measures to achieve it wouldn't work. There would be a massive backlash. |
|
|
|
Post by connacht4096 on Mar 10, 2023 15:37:35 GMT
my reason for supporting the forcable imposition of Irish is that it solves the coordination problem in undoing language shit. see switching the everyday language in use is not something that can be done on a purely individual level; it requires many people to decide to do it at the same time; if I speak to someone in a language no one will reply to me in; the result is most likely not being understood. this is very tricky to get via simple agreement; if the government decides to persecute non speakers of irish; the coordination has now been done; and now there is a more overt cost to not speaking Irish; which gives people an incentive to do so. i acknowledge that it is ugly; but i see no better way to acheive the result; that is what i am thinking when i advocate that. hopefully even those who disagree with it can see where i am coming from then
|
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 10, 2023 16:26:05 GMT
my reason for supporting the forcable imposition of Irish is that it solves the coordination problem in undoing language shit. see switching the everyday language in use is not something that can be done on a purely individual level; it requires many people to decide to do it at the same time; if I speak to someone in a language no one will reply to me in; the result is most likely not being understood. this is very tricky to get via simple agreement; if the government decides to persecute non speakers of irish; the coordination has now been done; and now there is a more overt cost to not speaking Irish; which gives people an incentive to do so. i acknowledge that it is ugly; but i see no better way to acheive the result; that is what i am thinking when i advocate that. hopefully even those who disagree with it can see where i am coming from then I don't think anyone has any difficulty seeing where you are coming from. Language change (both within and between languages) IS something that happens on a piecemeal basis all the time. It's not true that "nobody will reply to you" in the Irish language. Many will. The more people who insisted on speaking in Irish, the more people who would make it their business to acquire some. If the girl you like, or your boss, or the group you want to be a part of, insist on speaking in Irish, you'll make the effort. It would take an almighty effort from a large number of people to make it even ONE of our "everyday" languages, but it's more realistic than the dictatorial methods you envisage. |
|
|
|
Post by connacht4096 on Mar 10, 2023 17:17:26 GMT
I was using the "language no one will respond in" anecdote as an example of the type of problem; not a literall specific one in this case. and i think slow but eventuall language change within a language is good.
anyway, the thing that convinced me that brexit was disasterously implemented was that its supporters seemed to have only ridiculous ideas for how to solve the border problems that brexit creates. I think one of the proposals that brexit supporters seriously suggested was establishing a hard border that would be invisible on the ground because it would be patrolled using some sort of advanced technology; upon researching that idea you quickly learn that the technology they propose to use doesn't even exist yet! and it is debatable if that was the most ridiculous idea for dealing with the border problems or not.
this is where one of the best satirical headlines ever comes in; one Irish media outlet satirized the advanced technology proposal with the headline "Brexiters latest idea: Doctor Who will guard the border."; that headline is verry overtly ridiculous; but it is hard to point your finger at exactly what it exaggerates. (no personal offense to the makers of doctor who; any other British science fiction could have been used for the same satirical purpose; but using the most well known one maximizes the number of people that get the joke) that is still one of my favorite satirical headlines ever.
|
|
|
|
Post by cato on Mar 13, 2023 19:35:44 GMT
my reason for supporting the forcable imposition of Irish is that it solves the coordination problem in undoing language shit. see switching the everyday language in use is not something that can be done on a purely individual level; it requires many people to decide to do it at the same time; if I speak to someone in a language no one will reply to me in; the result is most likely not being understood. this is very tricky to get via simple agreement; if the government decides to persecute non speakers of irish; the coordination has now been done; and now there is a more overt cost to not speaking Irish; which gives people an incentive to do so. i acknowledge that it is ugly; but i see no better way to acheive the result; that is what i am thinking when i advocate that. hopefully even those who disagree with it can see where i am coming from then I don't think anyone has any difficulty seeing where you are coming from. Language change (both within and between languages) IS something that happens on a piecemeal basis all the time. It's not true that "nobody will reply to you" in the Irish language. Many will. The more people who insisted on speaking in Irish, the more people who would make it their business to acquire some. If the girl you like, or your boss, or the group you want to be a part of, insist on speaking in Irish, you'll make the effort. It would take an almighty effort from a large number of people to make it even ONE of our "everyday" languages, but it's more realistic than the dictatorial methods you envisage. I don't think you can get anywhere in a democracy by coercing people. I believe modern Conservative thought is based on human dignity and we simply cannot compel people to speak a language our ancestors decided to abandon. We have a history of resisting absurd laws and this idea wouldn't survive for long among a people with a healthy disrepect for absurdity(at least in former times). I respect the notion of revival and the motives of most revivalists but I am beginning to get annoyed at the mentality that we monoglots are somehow less Irish or inferior. Ireland is the home of the Irish people and our historical diaspora. |
|
