|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 17, 2017 20:29:34 GMT
For those who have lived in the U.S. - what do you like better about U.S. in comparison to Ireland and vice-versa? What are the biggest cultural differences between the two countries today?
For me, the biggest negative in Ireland is the culture of the nouveau riche. I can't comment on life outside of Dublin, but here, 90%> of people are obsessed with social class. It permeates nearly every social interaction. There is much less of this social snobbery in the U.S., although it does exist, particularly in places like NYC and Boston.
To elaborate a little bit, there is no Dublin equivalent to the notion of "Middle America." Nearly everyone in Dublin seems to aspire to what the Americans would call an upper middle-class lifestyle, whereas in many parts of America, there are, by contrast, whole swathes of people who are happy to have a job, a house, a big TV set, and a fridge filled with cold beers. They don't care what "estate" you live in or how you make your living, where you went to school, or what your accent says about you.
This is hands down my favourite thing about America. To me, it dwarfs what are perhaps more profound cultural differences.
On the other side of the equation, I like the European social welfare state (as much as I detest its abuses). There is an understanding of the importance of a social safety net that is lacking in America. It has its dark side, but it is, overall and on balance, a good thing to live in a country that has this.
|
|
|
|
Post by kj on Jul 17, 2017 21:45:14 GMT
It's funny you talk about Dublin. I was actually going to make a thread asking people's opinions about our capital. As a Leesider I've only been there a handful of times and am curious to know if the place has completely gone to the dogs. Your report confirms my suspicions:-)
I've only holidayed in the States. I found the people exceptionally friendly, much more than the English, and even more than our own lot. I felt there was a dynamism and openness there that is absent in tired, jaded old Europe.
But as you say, the lack of a safety net is terrifying. If you have no money you are dirt, less than dirt. A well-remunerated friend of mine who works there told me it is terrifying how quickly people can become homeless if they lose their jobs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Jul 18, 2017 9:05:15 GMT
I grew up on the Wicklow/Dublin border in a very middle-class area.My family has mostly been based in the Pale for around 800 years. I can definitely attest to what MourningIreland say about Dublin and the Pale today. I know my family from there spend a lot of time with keeping up with the O'carroll Kellys.  This is definitely not true of all of the island. My Wife and my adopted county of Monaghan that voted no in the so called Gay marriage referendum is not like the Pale. A lot of Monaghan people I know think a good life is having a job, a house, a big TV set to watch GAA, plenty of alcoholic beverages, family time and a fridge filled with good feeds Mammy will cook (or in my case, I will cook). Unfortunately, this is changing to. I have lived, travelled and really enjoyed the USA. It has a lot of good and bad points as a country. Its foundations are its greatest problem in my mind as they are based on Masonic, Protestant and Enlightenment ideals. Unfortunately, a lot of these ideas have spread to the Anglosphere, the West and across the globe. |
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 18, 2017 10:09:08 GMT
I grew up on the Wicklow/Dublin border in a very middle-class area.My family has mostly been based in the Pale for around 800 years. I can definitely attest to what MourningIreland say about Dublin and the Pale today. I know my family from there spend a lot of time with keeping up with the O'carroll Kellys. .... I have lived, travelled and really enjoyed the USA. It has a lot of good and bad points as a country. Its foundations are its greatest problem in my mind as they are based on Masonic, Protestant and Enlightenment ideals. Unfortunately, a lot of these ideas have spread to the Anglosphere, the West and across the globe. America's foundations are paradoxical and a mixture of the influences of both Christianity and the Enlightenment (which, as mentioned elsewhere, is itself paradoxical because its very notions of equality are rooted in Judeo-Christianity). The class obsession I mention is not a big part of mainstream American life, so I cannot link it to American culture. It is distinctly non-American. The South County Dublin mentality used to be a subculture but has now spread throughout the city. It has ruined Dublin in my view. When I was in Cork recently for the first time in many years I also felt it was spreading there, enough that I ticked Cork off my list as places to move to. |
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Jul 18, 2017 10:19:07 GMT
I would like to state that a class structure/hierarchy is not a bad in a civilisation and is natural.
Much like the church and heaven. The class structure is Non-American is an interesting point.
Historically and presently the USA has had class structures. Might be good to expand what you mean by class structure.
|
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 18, 2017 10:36:48 GMT
I would like to state that a class structure/hierarchy is not a bad in a civilisation and is natural. Much like the church and heaven. The class structure is Non-American is an interesting point. Historically and presently the USA has had class structures. Might be good to expand what you mean by class structure. In Dublin the class structure is a class obsession, meaning that Dubliners overwhelmingly judge others by where they live, where they work, where they went to school - in short, how much money they have. I don't think this is good for civilisation, or for Ireland today or in the future. It has broken the bonds of Irish community. I don't measure "quality of life" by whether I can afford to live in Castleknock or Goatstown, whether I own a villa in Turkey or Spain, whether I can afford to drive a flash car or hold a prestigious corporate or civil service job, own rental property, or can afford regular airplane trips to continental Europe, Australia, or North America. Unfortunately in Dublin, if you don't care passionately about these things and/or cannot afford them, you are in most cases rendered uninteresting or, at the worst - weak, backward, and without value. This is the main cause of our high suicide rate in my view. America's class structure is very different from what I describe above. |
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Jul 18, 2017 10:44:14 GMT
I suppose it depends on where in America you are talking about I suppose, but a high percentage of Americans would live similarly materialistically.
I think Social classing based on land ownership is better than what you describe, which would historically be have been found in Ireland.
|
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 18, 2017 10:48:52 GMT
I suppose it depends on where in America you are talking about I suppose, but a high percentage of Americans would live similarly materialistically. I think Social classing based on land ownership is better than what you describe, which would historically be have been found in Ireland. I'm not talking about materialism per se - I'm talking about the way that people in Dublin interact socially with others based on certain class markers. I lived and worked in the States for a long time and didn't find this type of social interaction except in pockets. Americans in the main are much more accepting of people regardless of "social class" than most Dubliners are. I don't think I can describe this difference any more accurately than I have already done above so I'll just stop now. |
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Jul 18, 2017 10:53:55 GMT
I suppose it depends on where in America you are talking about I suppose, but a high percentage of Americans would live similarly materialistically. I think Social classing based on land ownership is better than what you describe, which would historically be have been found in Ireland. I'm not talking about materialism per se - I'm talking about the way that people in Dublin interact socially with others based on certain class markers. I lived and worked in the States for a long time and didn't find this type of social interaction except in pockets. Americans in the main are much more accepting of people regardless of "social class" than most Dubliners are. I don't think I can describe this difference any more accurately than I have already done above so I'll just stop now. I see where you are coming from |
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 18, 2017 10:57:44 GMT
I'm not talking about materialism per se - I'm talking about the way that people in Dublin interact socially with others based on certain class markers. I lived and worked in the States for a long time and didn't find this type of social interaction except in pockets. Americans in the main are much more accepting of people regardless of "social class" than most Dubliners are. I don't think I can describe this difference any more accurately than I have already done above so I'll just stop now. I see where you are coming from Americans are very materialistic. Yet American materialism is very different from European materialism. The latter has an agenda behind it that the former does not. I'm still trying to parse what it all means, because I believe it goes to the heart of what has gone wrong in Irish society in the last 30 odd years. |
|
|
|
Post by ZenoOfCitium on Jul 18, 2017 22:44:45 GMT
The social markers that matter in the context of Dublin, matter very little in most of the rest of the Ireland. Certainly in the west, there is nowhere near the same obsession with accents or where a person went to school. Other things matter, but not those.
|
|
|
|
Post by servantofthechief on Jul 19, 2017 3:17:59 GMT
Poking in here as the unrepentant monarchist, but I think what MourningIreland is referring to as pertains the 'classism' of Dubliners is not actually 'Classism'. Class pretty much always exists everywhere in some form and America, in its various parts, always had them as well. The Classism of Dubliners is not that of an aristocracy, or of the well to do working class. For example the majority of middle classers here in the North are either former working classmen or the sons and daughters of such, the class difference is notable but not commented on unless it specifically comes up as a point of conversation and many a bar in the country plays host to the town workmen as well as the town lawyer and doctor, which I feel is one of our strong points as a culture, Dublin has utterly lost this.
The classism of Dublin is the Gilded Age Robber Baron mentality of Americas in the 1920s, the so called Roaring Twenties, where materialism and flashiness is the rule of the day, not actual sophistication and class. It is comparable to the thuggish mentality, like the gangsters of olden days and the modern day and obsession with status with no idea of what that status entails or what it means, so they collect symbols that speak of status for them. It is unearned laurels.
|
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 19, 2017 10:11:19 GMT
Poking in here as the unrepentant monarchist, but I think what MourningIreland is referring to as pertains the 'classism' of Dubliners is not actually 'Classism'. Class pretty much always exists everywhere in some form and America, in its various parts, always had them as well. The Classism of Dubliners is not that of an aristocracy, or of the well to do working class. For example the majority of middle classers here in the North are either former working classmen or the sons and daughters of such, the class difference is notable but not commented on unless it specifically comes up as a point of conversation and many a bar in the country plays host to the town workmen as well as the town lawyer and doctor, which I feel is one of our strong points as a culture, Dublin has utterly lost this. The classism of Dublin is the Gilded Age Robber Baron mentality of Americas in the 1920s, the so called Roaring Twenties, were materialism and flashiness is the rule of the day, not actual sophistication and class. It is comparable to the thuggish mentality, like the gangsters of olden days and the modern day and obsession with status with no idea of what that status entails or what it means, so they collect symbols that speak of status for them. It is unearned laurels. I think you hit the nail on the head. The term "classism" does not describe what I am talking about. The better term is the "nouveau riche culture." I know many wealthy Dubliners with posh accents, and many who grew up on council estates or in working class homes and have accents to match. Then there are wealthy Dublin residents who moved here from the country, or from a foreign country, who have also, through timing and circumstance (mainly meaning, buying a house before say 1998), become affluent; you would also be surprised at the number of people I know who got massive redundancy payments from multinationals around 2000. In all cases the attitude toward those with less $$$ is more or less the same. It has ruined Dublin culture. |
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 19, 2017 10:14:37 GMT
The social markers that matter in the context of Dublin, matter very little in most of the rest of the Ireland. Certainly in the west, there is nowhere near the same obsession with accents or where a person went to school. Other things matter, but not those. In Dublin these days there is still a subculture that is focused on accents, schools, and background, but the overwhelming emphasis is on the nouveau riche culture meaning, where you can afford to live and how much $$$ you have. |
|
|
|
Post by MourningIreland on Jul 19, 2017 10:30:57 GMT
...The classism of Dublin is the Gilded Age Robber Baron mentality of Americas in the 1920s, the so called Roaring Twenties, were materialism and flashiness is the rule of the day, not actual sophistication and class.... obsession with status with no idea of what that status entails or what it means, so they collect symbols that speak of status for them. It is unearned laurels. I should add that I think that's part of why the nouveau riche Irish hate Trump and Bannon so much - they are about noblesse oblige, a concept these Dubliners reject. Interestingly, I know a few working class Dubliners who are vocally pro-Trump. When you consider the Liberties for example the role of people like Dean Swift or the Guinness family and compare it to the self-obsession that is the overwhelming norm in Dublin today, the contrast is palpable. |
|
