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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 22, 2017 11:40:25 GMT
Stephen mentioned this in a previous thread, and it was also mentioned in a thread on mythology. I thought it was worthy of its own thread. It seems to have an extraordinary influence amongst Catholics and conservatives, especially conservatives of a traditionalist bent.
I'm not a Tolkien nut myself. I've read the book a couple of times, and watched the movies, but I can't tell you the name of Aragorn's grandfather or anything like that. The book has influenced my view of the world, but more indirectly than directly-- more hearing about it as a kid, than reading it. (I read it when I was really young but it mostly went over my head, I barely knew what was happening.) I'm interested to know how it's influenced people.
What about the Silmarillion?
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Post by Séamus on Jul 22, 2017 12:26:57 GMT
I mentioned, in a comment in the Irish papist blog, the unusual story of fr Colin Marshall, originally a Presbyterian from Glasgow, now in Melbourne. He largely became a Catholic and, eventually, an extraordinary-form-Mass priest through being a fan of Tolkien. Having finished his secondary education in an anti Catholic environment at a Presbyterian high school, he decided to study the life of Tolkien in university. It led him also to Newman and Chesterton. And to the Catholic church, even though Glasgow, from his description seems as sectarian as Belfast. Bizarrely, the once I joined him and others for lunch when he supplied for two weeks.... It was at a tavern where some merry tradesman were having "lunch". They called over ' you're a bit young to be FrBrown'. If it was meant to be a "heckle" he wouldn't have minded.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 22, 2017 12:39:09 GMT
I don't think he's the only one who's been drawn to the Faith through Tolkien! C.S. Lewis for a start....but quite a few people through Tolkien's writings.
Welcome to the forum, Séamus. Glad to see you post.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 22, 2017 12:57:29 GMT
I don't think he's the only one who's been drawn to the Faith through Tolkien! C.S. Lewis for a start....but quite a few people through Tolkien's writings. Welcome to the forum, Séamus. Glad to see you post. Not sure how I got it through or whether I'll manage it again, but at least you'll know now that I am really reading it
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Post by Stephen on Jul 24, 2017 12:20:36 GMT
My Favourite Fantasy book and book in general for years was the Hobbit. (My Wife and I visited the Shire in New Zealand. One of the best days ever!!! ) I also really enjoyed reading the Lord of the rings. I am not one of these people that religiously rereads the books every year, but always highly suggested its reading. This post made me look up Catholic points of views on the series and I have come across a Catholic mission priest views on the topic. I am in the middle of reading and contemplating his arguments. The talk is "The fantasy writing of Tolkien was Catholic! Well, not so fast." rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.htmlI would love to hear other people opinions on his thesis!!!
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Post by assisi on Jul 25, 2017 11:37:27 GMT
I read the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings many years ago as a youngster and enjoyed them both. But I didn't know at that time that Tolkien was a Catholic and I saw nothing deeper in the stories other than a good fantasy yarn. If I saw anything of the author's views it was probably some sort of love for rural England due to the 'Shire' and the affection with which he painted the life of the Shire.
I would agree with the priest in Rorate Caeli that few people would be converted to Catholicism on a reading of these books. More likely, as others have said, you might be converted if you researched Tolkien's own life, beliefs and influences.
I suppose it all depends if anyone, Tolkien or otherwise, claimed that the books were written with a view or hope to create conversions. If not then I think I would view the books as sheer entertainment, to be enjoyed first and foremost. I do like that they have, on closer analysis, general Christian messages that are at the heart of the novel : the existence of evil and the battle against it, the family oriented life of the Shire, and the danger of the attraction of power and greed that the ring represents.
The danger of the priest's analysis in Rorate Caeli is that, in the purest sense, any new created mythology would have to stick 100% allegorically to the story of Christ to be considered a success. But in reality that would end up just being a copy or re-run of the story of Christ with different names, locations and symbols. So, the best a Catholic fantasy writer can do is create a work that is entertaining, well written, imaginative and that is morally sound and, to use an old fashioned word, wholesome. Ultimately it could be hoped that the work becomes a pointer to Christ for those who think about the morality of the work closer and who look at the author's inspiration.
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Post by S.Trainor on Sept 7, 2017 0:49:22 GMT
I have been meaning to comment on this thread for a while and I am only getting around to this now. I happen to be a fantasy fanatic, and secondly (and much more importantly) it is all because of Tolkien. I have read Tolkien's Lord of the Rings eight times and the Silmarillion four times and many of his other works also- I find the tale of Beren and Lúthien to be the most beautiful love story of all time. Tolkien to me is the Father of modern fantasy and it is much more than a fantasy; it is what has now been universally recognised and established as a Legendarium. Tolkien sought to create an entire reality, a legend, a mythology (native and proudly distinctively English) that would be more than a mere story to be told. This is all important because Tolkien, within his own 'Creation' narrative that is found in the opening pages of the Silmarillion, presents a completely Augustinian metaphysical telling of Creation. The use of the music metaphor for the creation of the cosmos (for Tolkien Ea) is imbued with the writings of Saint Augustine. There are many other instances of allegory (which Tolkien adamantly denies) but they would be too extensive and cumbersome to enumerate here. Some have argued that whether Tolkien meant it or not, he could not escape his Catholic faith from spilling into the very fabric with which he wove his world. I have not yet come to a conclusion on this matter but one thing that I do find inescapable from Tolkien's writings are the intrinsically Catholic concepts and values that permeate his writings: death and its perverse hold upon human weakness, valour, honour, the struggle between good and evil, Sauron's absence yet ever threatening presence throughout the story (Melkor also) having an uncanny resemblance to that of the Devil, Varda the greatest of the female Valar being pure, sinless. I find that Tolkien's work is definitely a tool and a medium through which one can embark upon the road to the true Catholic faith. Like Frodo and his journey, one can make a similar journey but as Tolkien shows us it only takes us so far; we must take the ship to Valinor ourselves. For Tolkien, he would be honoured that his work brought people to the Catholic faith, but he would be cautious that it was EQUATED with the Catholic faith and furious for one to assume that the safety that the pages of his writings afford must therefore translate to the real faith. One can come to a beginning of coming to a Catholic conversion through Tolkien, but I think he would agree with me that it would never be enough on its own.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 7, 2017 9:02:36 GMT
I have been meaning to comment on this thread for a while and I am only getting around to this now. I happen to be a fantasy fanatic, and secondly (and much more importantly) it is all because of Tolkien. I have read Tolkien's Lord of the Rings eight times and the Silmarillion four times and many of his other works also- I find the tale of Beren and Lúthien to be the most beautiful love story of all time. Tolkien to me is the Father of modern fantasy and it is much more than a fantasy; it is what has now been universally recognised and established as a Legendarium. Tolkien sought to create an entire reality, a legend, a mythology (native and proudly distinctively English) that would be more than a mere story to be told. This is all important because Tolkien, within his own 'Creation' narrative that is found in the opening pages of the Silmarillion, presents a completely Augustinian metaphysical telling of Creation. The use of the music metaphor for the creation of the cosmos (for Tolkien Ea) is imbued with the writings of Saint Augustine. There are many other instances of allegory (which Tolkien adamantly denies) but they would be too extensive and cumbersome to enumerate here. Some have argued that whether Tolkien meant it or not, he could not escape his Catholic faith from spilling into the very fabric with which he wove his world. I have not yet come to a conclusion on this matter but one thing that I do find inescapable from Tolkien's writings are the intrinsically Catholic concepts and values that permeate his writings: death and its perverse hold upon human weakness, valour, honour, the struggle between good and evil, Sauron's absence yet ever threatening presence throughout the story (Melkor also) having an uncanny resemblance to that of the Devil, Varda the greatest of the female Valar being pure, sinless. I find that Tolkien's work is definitely a tool and a medium through which one can embark upon the road to the true Catholic faith. Like Frodo and his journey, one can make a similar journey but as Tolkien shows us it only takes us so far; we must take the ship to Valinor ourselves. For Tolkien, he would be honoured that his work brought people to the Catholic faith, but he would be cautious that it was EQUATED with the Catholic faith and furious for one to assume that the safety that the pages of his writings afford must therefore translate to the real faith. One can come to a beginning of coming to a Catholic conversion through Tolkien, but I think he would agree with me that it would never be enough on its own. Thanks for those reflections, S.T.-- eloquently worded. I recently tried to re-read the Silmarillion but gave up on it. I've read the Lord of the Rings a couple of times in my life and I'm thinking of giving it another go, I've just finished the last book I was reading so I'm not sure what to embark upon next.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 7, 2017 9:03:01 GMT
What other fantasy do you like, incidentally?
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Post by S.Trainor on Sept 7, 2017 14:03:37 GMT
Thank you I'm glad you appreciated them! I read the Silmarillion when I was about 14 and I found it extremely challenging but i loved every page of it. I would give it another go but. I love Star Wars, The Wheel of Time series and I especially love Harry Potter. I am ashamed to admit that at the age of 22 I am only finishing the last Harry Potter book soon lol. I loved the films and I have always regretted not growing up with the excitement of reading the new Harry Potter books as they were published- I was the audience Rowling was writing for as we grew and I missed out. I developed a Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings stance and chose Lord of the Rings out of some juvenile loyalty missing the books of Rowling. However, I love Harry Potter because of the same characteristics as Tolkien- she created a world, a universe and it is always growing in depth every time I read a new page or every time Rowling brings out more back story to characters. The story-line is magnificent and so dark and tense that it probably one of the greatest works of all time. I judge fantasy by the following and only criterion: Do I wish more than anything that this was real? If the answer is 'yes' then I will be hooked forever. I find myself at times longingly upset at the fact that I cannot go and learn magic at Hogwarts or seek the Eldar wand; that genuinely leaves me disappointed. similarly, the fact that I cannot know Gandalf, or travel to Minas Tirith or Valinor leaves me upset also. When I feel incomplete that the fantasy is precisely that and not real, then I know that I have stumbled across a treasure of literature and one that is and will always be so special to me.
lol I ramble and as you can tell I just love fantasy literature lol
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 7, 2017 14:20:28 GMT
I'm a member of a horror club and all my fellow members despise Harry Potter. Most of the readers I know despite Harry Potter. And I can't stand J.K. Rowling herself whenever she opens her mouth on a social issue. And yet, I think the Harry Potter books are wonderful story-telling and world-creation.
I read most of the Wheel of Time but gave up even before Robert Jordan died. I liked some parts of it, Tar Valon, but the author seemed to enjoy piling page on page on page for no good reason-- his obsession with the Aiel especially was tiresome.
Interesting point, my mother died of the same extremely rare ailment which killed Robert Jordan.
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Post by Stephen on Sept 11, 2017 8:48:59 GMT
Thank you I'm glad you appreciated them! I read the Silmarillion when I was about 14 and I found it extremely challenging but i loved every page of it. I would give it another go but. I love Star Wars, The Wheel of Time series and I especially love Harry Potter. I am ashamed to admit that at the age of 22 I am only finishing the last Harry Potter book soon lol. I loved the films and I have always regretted not growing up with the excitement of reading the new Harry Potter books as they were published- I was the audience Rowling was writing for as we grew and I missed out. I developed a Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings stance and chose Lord of the Rings out of some juvenile loyalty missing the books of Rowling. However, I love Harry Potter because of the same characteristics as Tolkien- she created a world, a universe and it is always growing in depth every time I read a new page or every time Rowling brings out more back story to characters. The story-line is magnificent and so dark and tense that it probably one of the greatest works of all time. I judge fantasy by the following and only criterion: Do I wish more than anything that this was real? If the answer is 'yes' then I will be hooked forever. I find myself at times longingly upset at the fact that I cannot go and learn magic at Hogwarts or seek the Eldar wand; that genuinely leaves me disappointed. similarly, the fact that I cannot know Gandalf, or travel to Minas Tirith or Valinor leaves me upset also. When I feel incomplete that the fantasy is precisely that and not real, then I know that I have stumbled across a treasure of literature and one that is and will always be so special to me. lol I ramble and as you can tell I just love fantasy literature lol Thank you, Mr Trainor, for thoughts on Fantasy and Lord of the rings especially. I also am saddened that I can not Visit Tom bombadil, Minas Tirith or the shire ( Technique I did vistit the Shire! and it was one of the best days of my life.). I agree what Milseáin has said about the Wheel of time, I have read the first seven books and do not intend on going back. The book series could be definity rewritten in maybe 5 or 6 books and loss very little. I myselve have really enjoyed reading Temeraire, Game of Thrones, Emperor and Father Elijah. I Would love to hear any other suggestions of Fantasy novels to read.
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Post by Séamus on Dec 22, 2017 2:38:17 GMT
I read piece in today's paper about Tolkien's 'letters from Santa' being put on display for the first time. I was wondering- had they ever been published?
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Post by optatuscleary on Jan 10, 2018 3:26:14 GMT
My Favourite Fantasy book and book in general for years was the Hobbit. (My Wife and I visited the Shire in New Zealand. One of the best days ever!!! ) I also really enjoyed reading the Lord of the rings. I am not one of these people that religiously rereads the books every year, but always highly suggested its reading. This post made me look up Catholic points of views on the series and I have come across a Catholic mission priest views on the topic. I am in the middle of reading and contemplating his arguments. The talk is "The fantasy writing of Tolkien was Catholic! Well, not so fast." rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.htmlI would love to hear other people opinions on his thesis!!! View AttachmentI’m one person who was converted through reading Tolkien. I’ll briefly tell you my conversion story: I was raised as an atheist, although my family had been Catholic. I was fascinated by the mystery of religion, especially at Christmas time when images of the Magi would appear. Reading the Narnia books at the age of ten really broke down my conviction that God is impossible. When I read Lord of the Rings at fourteen, I was thoroughly convinced by its themes. When I learned that Tolkien was Catholic from reading Joseph Pearce’s book, I began researching the Catholic faith. I attribute much of my conversion to Tolkien, and I think the priest in that article is gravely misguided about the purpose and use of fiction.
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Post by Stephen on Jan 10, 2018 8:04:51 GMT
My Favourite Fantasy book and book in general for years was the Hobbit. (My Wife and I visited the Shire in New Zealand. One of the best days ever!!! ) I also really enjoyed reading the Lord of the rings. I am not one of these people that religiously rereads the books every year, but always highly suggested its reading. This post made me look up Catholic points of views on the series and I have come across a Catholic mission priest views on the topic. I am in the middle of reading and contemplating his arguments. The talk is "The fantasy writing of Tolkien was Catholic! Well, not so fast." rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.htmlI would love to hear other people opinions on his thesis!!! View AttachmentI’m one person who was converted through reading Tolkien. I’ll briefly tell you my conversion story: I was raised as an atheist, although my family had been Catholic. I was fascinated by the mystery of religion, especially at Christmas time when images of the Magi would appear. Reading the Narnia books at the age of ten really broke down my conviction that God is impossible. When I read Lord of the Rings at fourteen, I was thoroughly convinced by its themes. When I learned that Tolkien was Catholic from reading Joseph Pearce’s book, I began researching the Catholic faith. I attribute much of my conversion to Tolkien, and I think the priest in that article is gravely misguided about the purpose and use of fiction. Thank you for sharing a bit of your conversion story and I would agree with you.
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