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Post by rogerbuck on May 15, 2017 9:48:11 GMT
Brexit and a United Ireland ... I would be very much interested in people's thoughts about this - even if I fear my own are still unformed and possibly very naive, given that I never lived through the Troubles here and don't understand the terrible complexities here enough to comment properly.
Still, living as I currently am in the North, I do hear much about what may happen when the loss of EU subsidies begins to bite or about "soft Unionists" who may not like Dublin so much, but do like being European. Some are claiming that the numbers here may be very substantial indeed. And enough to tip the balance, particularly if Scotland achieves independence.
Personally, if that happens, I cannot quite imagine a "United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland". But I have a neighbour who suffered through the Troubles and I think he thinks I am naive to think that Brexit has significantly reduced the opposition to a United Ireland.
I never thought I'd see a UI in my life. But I start to wonder. What do others think?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 15, 2017 10:32:45 GMT
Given that, only decades ago, so many people were willing to kill each other over the constitutional status of Northern Ireland, and that they had quite a large support base in the different communities, I find it hard to believe that Brexit is going to a decisive factor for many of them.
Personally I would not like to see a United Ireland at this time as it could lead to a further outbreak of terrorism. I would like to see it in the fullness of time, but as an Irish nationalist I care more about our cultural and social distinctiveness than territory.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 15, 2017 11:24:45 GMT
Yes and I am uncomfortable treading into this awful bloodstained territory that I don't understand sufficiently. But, as far I understand it, the demographics have shifted a LOT since then. There is now parity between the numbers of Nationalist and Unionist communities - admittedly not voting age parity, but that is coming, coming in what I would reasonably expect in my lifetime. I also read reports, like this one based on a Unionist perspective which I will partly quote and then link to: But of course that comfort blanket is about to disappear ... Link here: 2irelands2gether.com/2017/03/26/the-most-interesting-conversation-i-have-had-about-irish-unity-for-a-very-long-time/ |
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Post by Stephen on May 15, 2017 15:08:03 GMT
This is a topic that greatly interests me as I currently reside in Northern Ireland. There are many Problems with Irish Unity. One being that too many people in Northern Ireland work for the state, I think it is around 30% and the Republic wouldn't be able to afford it. Many other problems such as NHS, possible armed conflicted, etc.
I personally would like a united Ireland in many ways (I do not define myself as a nationalist and definitely not a republican.). The newly formed Irish state would have to be very different to the current Irish republic as the people of Northern Ireland would not want Dublin Rule. Maybe a Federal state method!!!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 15, 2017 15:16:16 GMT
Then you might like this forum as well!  federalireland.boards.net/Would be interested to hear what your British identity means to you. |
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Post by Stephen on May 16, 2017 7:44:42 GMT
Thank you for the link. In My opinion, every person living in Ireland accept maybe a few remaining Gaelic speaking people in the west have a British identity.
I would define a British identity as a shared set of social behaviours and norms found across the British Isles.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 16, 2017 8:37:14 GMT
I can agree with that, although I consider it a shame rather than a good thing myself-- I would like Ireland to be as distinctive as possible. Not out of any anti-Britishness, though. I strongly agree with Douglas Hyde in his lecture, "The Necessity for de-Anglicizing Ireland". www.gaeilge.org/deanglicising.htmlThe funny thing is that, if you said this to many Irish people, they would react indignantly-- and yet, their behaviour would seem to support it (supporting English soccer teams, speaking English and not even making any effort to use Irish, watching British soaps, etc). On the other hand, I've never had a problem with the term "British Isles". |
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Post by rogerbuck on May 16, 2017 11:08:21 GMT
This is a topic that greatly interests me as I currently reside in Northern Ireland. There are many Problems with Irish Unity. One being that too many people in Northern Ireland work for the state, I think it is around 30% and the Republic wouldn't be able to afford it. Many other problems such as NHS, possible armed conflicted, etc. I personally would like a united Ireland in many ways (I do not define myself as a nationalist and definitely not a republican.). The newly formed Irish state would have to be very different to the current Irish republic as the people of Northern Ireland would not want Dublin Rule. Maybe a Federal state method!!! All very interesting. I imagination that pragmatically this federation is something that needs serious discussion. Personally though, I would lament the loss of what's left of that 1937 constitution. When you say you are not a Republican, Stephen, I wonder if you mean you would advocate a return to the British crown? While I wouldn't share that with you, I can hear and appreciate that you have a love for Britain and love is important, wherever it is found. I am a Hibernophile as well as a Francophile and those are important parts of me. So I do understand a love of Britain and can even imagine there are deep reasons for that. God may have given you that for a greater purpose, just as I believe He led me to Ireland and France and to see and love what I found here/there. |
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Post by Stephen on May 16, 2017 12:09:22 GMT
All very interesting. I imagination that pragmatically this federation is something that needs serious discussion. Personally though, I would lament the loss of what's left of that 1937 constitution. When you say you are not a Republican, Stephen, I wonder if you mean you would advocate a return to the British crown? While I wouldn't share that with you, I can hear and appreciate that you have a love for Britain and love is important, wherever it is found. I am a Hibernophile as well as a Francophile and those are important parts of me. So I do understand a love of Britain and can even imagine there are deep reasons for that. God may have given you that for a greater purpose, just as I believe He led me to Ireland and France and to see and love what I found here/there. I would also lament the loss of what's left of that 1937 constitution. I do not want to return to the British crown but would prefer the British Royal family than Most of the recent Republic of Ireland Presidents. As a Monarchist I would like to see an Irish Monarchy. Britain was a great and beautiful once! Sadly I think it is too late for them as their Culture is dying faster and faster each year. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 17, 2017 8:53:29 GMT
I am also a monarchist, and I would like to see an Irish monarch.
Personally, I would be just as happy to have Queen Elizabeth II (long may she reign) and her successors as our monarchs. However, I think my immediate forebears would turn in their graves, and I do have a sense of filial piety.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 4, 2019 10:41:37 GMT
A bunch of Irish notables, doubtless overwhelmingly left-wing, want to "open a conversation" about the reunification of Ireland. www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/over-1-000-sign-new-conversation-open-letter-to-taoiseach-1.4071063As an Irish nationalist, I realize (from my reaction to articles like this) that I have now become positively hostile to most proposals for a united Ireland. It seems paradoxical, but there are three main reasons: 1) The motivation for most such proposals, these days, seems to be an antipathy towards borders and a drive towards amalgamation in general. So a united Ireland is really just a step to a united Europe and presumably a single world-state in the long run. Against that mentality, I would rather see a hundred borders spring up in Ireland. 2) As long as we are in the EU, what does a united Ireland mean, anyway? 3) Similarly, what is the point of a united Ireland unless we are working towards an Irish Ireland? "Not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well". (And let it be understood that I mean "Gaelic" in a cultural and not any kind of racial sense, and with a room for those of Ulster-Scots heritage and indeed other minority heritages. But NOT a "rainbow nation".) |
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Post by assisi on Nov 4, 2019 13:22:09 GMT
A bunch of Irish notables, doubtless overwhelmingly left-wing, want to "open a conversation" about the reunification of Ireland. www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/over-1-000-sign-new-conversation-open-letter-to-taoiseach-1.4071063As an Irish nationalist, I realize (from my reaction to articles like this) that I have now become positively hostile to most proposals for a united Ireland. It seems paradoxical, but there are three main reasons: 1) The motivation for most such proposals, these days, seems to be an antipathy towards borders and a drive towards amalgamation in general. So a united Ireland is really just a step to a united Europe and presumably a single world-state in the long run. Against that mentality, I would rather see a hundred borders spring up in Ireland. 2) As long as we are in the EU, what does a united Ireland mean, anyway? 3) Similarly, what is the point of a united Ireland unless we are working towards an Irish Ireland? "Not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well". (And let it be understood that I mean "Gaelic" in a cultural and not any kind of racial sense, and with a room for those of Ulster-Scots heritage and indeed other minority heritages. But NOT a "rainbow nation".) The timing of such initiatives are worth taking into account too On top of Brexit I don't sense any great desire in N.I. aside from Republicans for a United Ireland poll. It suits the likes of Sinn Fein to keep such issues at the forefront as it gives the illusion that they are 'doing something' while in reality, they have been absent from Stormont for several year and are doing next to nothing. It seems also that it is a strategy of the left liberals to constantly whip up societal division and discord and wear people down. A worn down people is more likely to accept the type of changes we have recently seen as they are too mentally exhausted to put up a fight. So after the Black lives matter, the European Immigration crisis, the MeToo movement, the Pride and transgender propaganda, the anti-Trump and anti-Brexit continuing impeachment and delaying tactics respectively and the recent Extinction Rebellion uprising, I think we could fairly assume that there is a strategy to radically change society through constant societal division and chaos. Dare I suggest also that it would suit the EU Brexit strategy if Northern Unionists, the DUP, mainly, were to accept an inferior deal because they fear a looming United Ireland move. One of the best ways to deal with this is for the Unionists and others to come up with a counter conversation on the benefits of the UK with a proposal for the Republic of Ireland to become part of the Britain again. Have 1000 Northerners and Southerners sign it and invite others to participate in the conversation. Not that I agree with the ROI becoming part of Britain again, but the proposal would be anathema to the Shinners and the whole thing would hopefully blow over. The mistake would be for non-United Irelanders to engage in this conversation as they are ceding momentum to the Left. Overall as an Irish Nationalist, I would look forward to a United Ireland one day. But I won't vote to be part of for a vassal state of the EU imperialists. Until Ireland is Irish again there can be no such thing as a United Ireland. |
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Post by cato on Nov 4, 2019 16:26:05 GMT
I think Assisi is correct in that the best approach is to ignore this proposal although it may gain a momentum. Hopefully not.
One of the things I despise about the loose talk about unification is the ignorance of southern opinion which does not realise the hostility many Loyalists have to the idea. Since the Good Friday Agreement sectarian feeling has deepened in many ways and the middle ground SDLP and Official Unionists have been decimated by the extremes of Sinn Fein and the DUP.
Many Irish nationalists no longet really care about the Irish language or Ireland's culture and history. They are no longer catholic in any meaningful sense. They embrace the EU and the globalist tech giants. However here is still a residual anti British sentiment which Brexit has helped fuel . That anti Brit/unionist gut feeling is at the heart of a lot of this talk about uniting the island. Some of it is bar stool philosophising. There are some romantics who also think it's a desirable goal which is fair enough but they also need to address the fears of unionists who object full stop to unity.
Seamus Mallon has also cautioned against an approach to unity which will push for a poll when 50% plus one desire it. A substantial number of unionists must be persuaded to opt for it freely to make it work.
Few republicans for example will agree to commonwealth membership or to having the Crown as our head of state like Canada Australia or New Zealand, all free independent nations. It is completely unrealistic to expect all the compromises to facilitate a united Ireland will come one way. Symbols are not everything but they are important.
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