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Post by cato on Jul 31, 2017 22:02:48 GMT
I have recently noticed in various book shops promotions on dystopian novels. It's an interesting genre and I plan to read A Hand Maids Tale and It Couldn't Happen Here which seem to appeal to those who see Trumph as a new Hitler and his election as the begining of a new dark age.
A Hand Maids Tale seems to appeal to pro choice feminists who seem to ignore the one place in the Middle East that actually has institutionalised sex slavery in the 21st century. Similarly many current readers of 1984 are ignoring its'cold war genesis and are applying it rather absurdly to the modern west which has never been as peaceful prosperous and focused on individual rights and freedoms.
I have become a fan of Michel Houellebecq's works. They are not pleasant reading or optimistic. Ireland gets suprisingly positive coverage in a couple of them . His last work Submission envisages an Islamic France. The main character Francois is unable to find meaning in sensuality or catholicism and eventually embraces Islam and polygamy.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 31, 2017 22:20:32 GMT
Great thread.
Perhaps the most ridiculous dystopian fiction ever is V for Vendetta. A fascist Britain where gays are taken away to be executed and the Church of England is hand-in-glove with the fascists. Because that's pretty much what we have now, they've only exaggerated slightly.
It does seem rather unfair that 1984 is often used to bash socialism, or even social democracy, or even anything short of free market capitalism, when Orwell was a socialist himself.
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Post by cato on Aug 2, 2017 20:23:58 GMT
One of the reasons I like Orwell is that unlike most leftists like George Bernard Shaw he wasn't blinded by stalinism but nether did he ignore the evils of imperialism or 1930s British capitalism which tolerated scandalous levels of want and poverty. Aldous Huxley's Brave New World is probably the nearest depiction to our technologicaĺly advanced hyper sexualised drugged up culture. It's on my list of books to reread.
Dystopian literature appeals to a deep current pessimism in the west which has been around at least since Spengler's Decline of the West. Thankfully the west has not fallen yet but the main source of resistance to our total capitulation has been the USA. Trumph's America First speech may not have been a rhetorical triumph but it was a defiant confident challenge to declinism and pessimism.
Materially in the west we have never had it so good yet we are deeply discontent. We have never had so much peace but feel insecure and in danger. We have never been as secular but lead atomised and hopeless existences. Nothing in our virtual world it seems can fill the gaps where God used to dwell.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 2, 2017 20:46:06 GMT
Dystopian fiction can be strangely pleasing. Perhaps it is a relief to imaginatively experience the worst, since we are always fearing the worst.
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Post by Tomas on Aug 2, 2017 20:54:44 GMT
It´s a pity one can never find time enough for reading... When there is no chance to read more than a few titles, a bit more in the summer but still not much more than some handful, it seems necessary to skip so many books that you are interested in even if not inclined to "like" all its contents. Orwell´s works falls into that category for my part. I think you Cato are right also that dystopian literature appeals to a current pessimism still today!
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Post by Séamus on Aug 3, 2017 8:04:13 GMT
Dystopian fiction can be strangely pleasing. Perhaps it is a relief to imaginatively experience the worst, since we are always fearing the worst. I was thinking, at the mention of Pope Francis, about Robert Hugh Benson's LORD OF THE WORLD. It surprises a lot of people that His Holiness would be a fan of that one. What I always like to note about these books is : What they foresee and what they don't. Orwell foresaw quite a lot about our society, but not the continuing perseverance of religious practice. Huxley could see designer babies but not mobile phones. And we still don't have eau-de-cologne on tap. A lot of aspects of LORD OF THE WORLD could seem frighteningly real or possible, but according to Benson's vision the Catholic Church's leadership would never go astray , even towards the end. Ireland didn't play a big part in the book but mention was made that the Irish would not give up the Faith, so the population had to be dispersed. He didn't foresee the monarchies of Europe falling over like a pack of cards after the Great War or the remaining royalty being less than exemplary(although it must be said:Liechtenstein's, Belgium's and Luxemburg's heads-of-state seem to remain more religious than the general populations). He didn't think that religious orders or their heads would be the gullible to major apostasy , or cardinals for that matter. Benson certainly didn't think that a pope may be accused of succumbing to unorthodoxy. And, despite what people have been prophesying for decades now, we still don't fly around cities in planes-for-one.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 3, 2017 8:47:52 GMT
The funny thing is when a writer makes a dystopia which is a complete reversal of all the prevailing trends in our society. For instance, if somebody were to make a dystopia of an America or Europe fun by Christian fundamentalists, as a satire of modern life, when really the shoe is on the other foot-- Christians are the ones being suppressed, as many fair-minded secular people now admit.
I mean, there's no reason stricly speaking why any writer shouldn't do that, but usually a dystopia is a social commentary on the present, and to that extent such "reverse of reality" dystopias are rather perverse. Like drawing a caricature of someone and exaggerating all their least pronounced facial features.
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Post by kj on Aug 3, 2017 15:26:27 GMT
Michel Houellebecq lived in Ireland for quite a few years. First in Monkstown, Co Cork, then in the Burren area. He absolutely loved the latter and writes about it tenderly and with emotion in his letters collection. He says he found the landscape and the skies unique in the world. In his masterpiece 'Atomised' he offers a fairly bleak assessment of Ireland's social denigration and the last part of the novel is set in the Clifden area of Galway.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 3, 2017 15:28:21 GMT
You've done something almost unprecedented-- made me feel inclined to read a work of modern literary fiction.
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Post by kj on Aug 3, 2017 15:37:03 GMT
Oh, 'Atomised' is a masterpiece, captures the Zeitgeist perfectly. The final part in Galway is very moving. Essential reading!
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Post by cato on Aug 3, 2017 22:26:05 GMT
I originally misjudged Atomised by its' rather salacious cover and refused to read it and when I did eventually did read it on a train journey got lots of judgemental looks. Perhaps it should come with a brown paper wrapping?
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Post by ZenoOfCitium on Aug 4, 2017 10:55:58 GMT
I only read Atomised two months ago and was much taken by it. I should say up front that much of the sexual content is graphic but that is it not gratuitous, as the author uses it to almost make the user nauseous of it, in the manner that modern popular culture would if distilled down. It's a rather damning account of the degeneration of France, Europe and the West - and Ireland, as kj points out, is not spared. It is well worth a read and is a work of intelligence. In some ways he was saying 'this is what happens when a civilisation comes detached from its foundations' - strong elements too of 'we have tasted and tested too much lover'.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 4, 2017 11:05:29 GMT
This is a very high-end forum, I must say.
Cato, your post about Atomised's cover reminds me of an interview I saw with James Patterson. He was decrying Kindle because these days he's less likely to know if someone is reading one of his books on an airplane etc.
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Post by cato on Aug 4, 2017 15:57:42 GMT
Anyone who has enjoyed Atomised should try Submission. It seems as if Houellebecq is pushing his earlier themes and is suggesting the West is spiritually dead and needs some rigor and discipline which his main figure finds not in traditional french religion and culture but in Islam. It is provocative like all of his work but it gets you thinking.
I recently read Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 (the temperature paper will ignite at) about a future USA where books are banned and firemen are hired to burn any books they can find. The underground pass copies of forbidden books around or memorise texts to keep their message alive. It's a good read for any one who loves reading books and is concerned about their future.
There is a sub genre of dystopia that might be classified as What if ... historical works. A few months ago I read Philip Dick's The Man in the High Castle which depicts a USA that was defeated in World War II and is now partitioned by the Japanese and the Nazis . It has been televised but I haven't seen it yet. Kingsley Amis produced a work The Alteration where the Reformation never happened and where in 1976 a reactionary catholic church dominates a medieval style world. Again it's worth a read.
The link between science fiction and dystopia is interesting. The novel Planet of the Apes appears to be a satire on racism. I expect there are other examples.
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Post by cato on Aug 4, 2017 21:03:38 GMT
Dystopian fiction can be strangely pleasing. Perhaps it is a relief to imaginatively experience the worst, since we are always fearing the worst. I was thinking, at the mention of Pope Francis, about Robert Hugh Benson's LORD OF THE WORLD. It surprises a lot of people that His Holiness would be a fan of that one. What I always like to note about these books is : What they foresee and what they don't. Orwell foresaw quite a lot about our society, but not the continuing perseverance of religious practice. Huxley could see designer babies but not mobile phones. And we still don't have eau-de-cologne on tap. A lot of aspects of LORD OF THE WORLD could seem frighteningly real or possible, but according to Benson's vision the Catholic Church's leadership would never go astray , even towards the end. Ireland didn't play a big part in the book but mention was made that the Irish would not give up the Faith, so the population had to be dispersed. He didn't foresee the monarchies of Europe falling over like a pack of cards after the Great War or the remaining royalty being less than exemplary(although it must be said:Liechtenstein's, Belgium's and Luxemburg's heads-of-state seem to remain more religious than the general populations). He didn't think that religious orders or their heads would be the gullible to major apostasy , or cardinals for that matter. Benson certainly didn't think that a pope may be accused of succumbing to unorthodoxy. And, despite what people have been prophesying for decades now, we still don't fly around cities in planes-for-one. Seamus I have always been surprised to hear Pope Francis is a fan of this novel. I am going to have to reread it carefully.
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