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Post by cato on Aug 16, 2017 14:51:14 GMT
I was at a latin Mass yesterday on the feast of the assumption which is one of the most joyful beautiful liturgical feasts. The first reading was from the book of Judith where Judith ,a Marian prototype, beheads Holofernes the persecuter of the Jews. It's my favourite politically incorrect Marian image . I have a copy of Caravaggio's depiction of the scene on my wall which I show to liberal catholics I know to gently wind them up.
There is a bitter sweet aspect to the Assumption. In a way it marks the end of Summer and the begining of our descent into Autumn (my favourite season).
The cosmic power of the Virgin comes out very well in the first reading from the book of the apocalypse in the ordinary form rite. I was very struck too that the line from the Magnificat "all generations shall call me blessed" is fulfilled by traditional christianity in their liturgies and the Rosary. Biblical fundamentalists aren't renowned for love of the Mother of God alas.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 16, 2017 17:03:19 GMT
There is something special about the Assumption. It comes out of nowhere, in the middle of Ordinary Time. It's unabashedly supernatural and can't be translated into metaphorical terms. The secular world completely ignores it. It provides an opportunity to assert our Catholic identity. I had to ask my supervisor to have my work schedule changed and could plead, "it's a holy day of obligation". And yes, the Magnificat seems a clear prediction and vindication of Marian devotion.
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Post by Tomas on Aug 16, 2017 17:59:51 GMT
Not knowing M Luther biography well at all I tend to think that the claim that he personally held fast to Marian devotion even after his heretical falls (don´t know in what form) would be about the one positive thing to say to his life in Church history.
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Post by cato on Aug 16, 2017 19:54:52 GMT
Some of the original reformers would put modern catholics to shame. When Henry VIII was dying he insisted on getting on his knees to receive the blessed sacrament. He also burned several protestants for heresy after he had broken communion with Rome.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 16, 2017 20:02:19 GMT
Fair play to him. I read he actually cried at the idea of the Bible being read in English.
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Post by cato on Aug 16, 2017 20:17:23 GMT
As well as being a randy old goat he does appear to have had a genuine spiritual life. Doctrinally he remained an orthodox catholic (apart from the denial of papal primacy) and left large sums of money in his will for requiem masses for his soul.He was a bit of a scholar and read biblical Greek I believe. It is possible he really believed his original marriage to Queen Catherine was invalid as she had been bethrothed previously to Henry's brother Arthur . He based this on his own reading of Leviticus.
Mind you he also dispatched to Glory the heroic Saints Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher and various other saintly witnesses some hung drawn and quartered for their fidelity.
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Post by MourningIreland on Aug 18, 2017 23:21:29 GMT
As well as being a randy old goat he does appear to have had a genuine spiritual life. Doctrinally he remained an orthodox catholic (apart from the denial of papal primacy).... Sorry but I'm having trouble with this sentence, as it appears to violate the law of non-contradiction. |
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Post by MourningIreland on Aug 18, 2017 23:24:55 GMT
....Mind you he also dispatched to Glory the heroic Saints Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher and various other saintly witnesses some hung drawn and quartered for their fidelity. Having a little bit of trouble with this one too, I'm afraid. To my mind, Pope Henry gave us St. Margaret Clitherow like Hitler gave us St. Kolbe. |
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Post by cato on Aug 19, 2017 0:51:02 GMT
As well as being a randy old goat he does appear to have had a genuine spiritual life. Doctrinally he remained an orthodox catholic (apart from the denial of papal primacy).... Sorry but I'm having trouble with this sentence, as it appears to violate the law of non-contradiction. Perhaps you should read the remarks in context where I was contrasting Henry's doctrinal fidelity with the infidelity of many modern catholics including senior prelates I may add. I used the example of the eucharist. Perhaps the use of the word catholic was careless on my part. I will substitute believer/christian if you like. However theologically Henry had the same theological stance more or less as orthodox catholics (as in the Orthodox churches who reject papal primacy) so my remarks can be read as doctrinally correct. The catholic church regards the Orthodox churches as real churches with full sacraments unlike the protestant denominations. I also greatly admire the principle of non contradiction which is one of the pillars of western civilisation. I do contradict myself regularly but hopefully not on this occasion. |
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Post by cato on Aug 19, 2017 1:02:17 GMT
....Mind you he also dispatched to Glory the heroic Saints Thomas More and Bishop John Fisher and various other saintly witnesses some hung drawn and quartered for their fidelity. Having a little bit of trouble with this one too, I'm afraid. To my mind, Pope Henry gave us St. Margaret Clitherow like Hitler gave us St. Kolbe. I feel like this is like a theology/spirituality exam! So yes Hitler carried out or as you say "gave" us the Holocaust .And yes he gave us Martyrs too! He didn't intend to do the church a favour but out of his hatred of christianity and judaism he gave us saints like Maximillian Kolbe , Edith Stein and Blessed Brandsma. Henry butchered saints. Period. As did Hitler and many other tyrants. It is well documented in the scriptures and will continue to the consummation of the world. I hope I have clarified things. God bless, MourningIreland. |
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Post by MourningIreland on Aug 19, 2017 23:39:43 GMT
Sorry but I'm having trouble with this sentence, as it appears to violate the law of non-contradiction. Perhaps you should read the remarks in context where I was contrasting Henry's doctrinal fidelity with the infidelity of many modern catholics including senior prelates I may add. I used the example of the eucharist. Perhaps the use of the word catholic was careless on my part. I will substitute believer/christian if you like. However theologically Henry had the same theological stance more or less as orthodox catholics (as in the Orthodox churches who reject papal primacy) so my remarks can be read as doctrinally correct. The catholic church regards the Orthodox churches as real churches with full sacraments unlike the protestant denominations. I also greatly admire the principle of non contradiction which is one of the pillars of western civilisation. I do contradict myself regularly but hopefully not on this occasion.LOL. I have always thought "High Anglicans prior to the Anglican Ordinariate or Quakers - no difference" but I can see your point with regard to Orthodoxy, which despite the absence of the Magesterium is not considered Protestant. I will have to look into the theology here as you have raised a point I never considered before. |
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