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Post by cato on May 24, 2017 12:33:09 GMT
According to the prophecies of St Malachy Francis is the last pope. I agree in the sense that he has so reinterpreted or down graded the papal role that any future popes will be seen as akin to patriarchs or the archbishop of Canterbury.
He has a soft spot for Anglicanism which is unusual for a south American. This is I think a key to understanding his ecclesial vision - decentralising , synodal government ,less emphasis on doctrine, the sympathy towards the Society of St Pius X is typical Anglican broad church "tolerance", pastoral u turns on difficult moral questions etc. The problem with this is simple. Anglicanism as a model is in deep decline and crisis . Why copy a failed ecclesiastical experiment?
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Post by caritas on May 25, 2017 0:19:54 GMT
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Prophecies of St. Malachy as they are universally held to be a forgery dating from the 16th Century.
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Post by cato on May 25, 2017 21:01:52 GMT
I was attempting to start a discussion on Pope Francis who is a rather problematic figure for conservative catholics. I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories or nostradamus style predictions whatsover. I have an MA in medieval history for what it's worth. I was not intending to express literal belief in the accuracy of the so called prophecies which have no relationship whatsoever with the ecclesiatical reformer St Malachy. Mea culpa.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 25, 2017 21:07:42 GMT
It's a very difficult subject for many conservative Catholics. With this pontificate, it's as though our feelings of devotion towards the successor of St. Peter and our fidelity to Catholic tradition is in tension. Certainly I hate to hear any Catholic speak disrespectfully of a reigning Pope, and sadly this has happened a lot with Pope Francis.
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Post by cato on May 25, 2017 21:59:05 GMT
I understand that but I think tradition is more than the papacy. We have had at least 2 recent papal giants which is wonderful but historically we have had awful rogues too.
Papal infallibility is quite a limited concept if you read the actual decree of Vatican I carefully.Yes we had a Vatican I !Most catholics used to believe the pope's every word was practically equal to scripture or practically infallible which is clearly nonsense. I am dismayed at some aspects of the current papacy but deeply impressed by other aspects such as his love for the poor.
Traditional catholics need ,I believe ,to move away from a fixation on the personality of the Pope , who can err if he doesn't formally speak ex cathedra or if he formally contradicts Christ's teaching and the constant teaching of the church. This is extremely rare contra the claims of liberal catholics who I agree have been undermining the papal teaching role for at least two generations .We have had at least one great schism in church history .There has never been a guarantee given there will never be another.
I hope and pray this will not occur but seeing the way the defenders of tradition have been insulted and abused publically without being actually answered , I find it deeply troubling and worrying.I do pray for Francis every day.
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Post by rogerbuck on May 26, 2017 7:17:50 GMT
I have kept my silence on this matter at my blog and in my books for four years now, but really ask myself if the crisis in the Church has become so grave that I need to abandon this policy. Still struggling with this.
If anyone had good thoughts or good links about when it is justified to question the reigning pontiff or HOW and in what way it may be appropriate, I would grateful for such.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 3, 2017 14:25:39 GMT
Mark Shea, who I used to admire, posted this on his blog ( link here): BEGIN QUOTE Conservative Catholic Trump supporters are the people Conservative Catholics warned you against 12 years ago. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one’s own ego and desires. – Pope Benedict XVI, 2005And the bizarre thing is that many of the people who most passionately claimed fidelity to the gospel this great man taught are now the most passionate defenders and champions of a man who embodies everything Benedict was warning about–and bitter enemies of the successor Benedict has repeatedly praised. The spirit of Strong Delusion at work on the Francis-Hating/Trump-adoring Right is the most profound example of the mystery of evil it has been my grief to witness in my lifetime. I cannot fathom it. END QUOTE. In my comment (for I don't see why Shea should be allowed to write nonsense on the internet unchallenged), I was more openly critical of the Holy Father than I've ever been in a public forum before, but I felt it was warranted: BEGIN QUOTE I don't hate Pope Francis. I have reservations about the direction of his pontificate, as most other Catholics I know have. I have rarely heard one disrespectful, never mind hateful, word about the Holy Father himself expressed by such people in "real life", though I've seen plenty on the internet-- but the internet is full of any kookiness you choose to look for. Mostly these reservations are based on interpretations of Amoris Laetitae (the text of which is unexceptionable in itself) of which he seems to approve, which contradict previous teachings of the Church, most notably that of St. John Paul II. There's your relativism. Attempts to square this circle using various forms of casuistry have the unfortunate effect of relativizing all Catholic teaching, making all its doctrine whatsoever dissoluble once magic words such as "pastoral" and "conscience" are invoked, accompanied by the inevitable swipes against Pharisaism and rigorism. Why this same situation ethics wouldn't also apply to abortion, euthanasia, pollution, torture, racism, etc. etc. baffles me, and many others who cannot take docility to the point of double-think. You wrote a very moving rhapsody on St. John Paul II's personalism in your Mary trilogy, one that actually reduced me to tears. It really seems breathtakingly cynical, truly shocking, for you to throw his teaching overboard now, because there's a new exciting guy in town. What if the doctrines Pope Francis does not question, such as female ordination, are called into question by a future Pope, who will also speak about God being the God of surprises and not using commandments as stones to throw at people? Will you be onboard with that too? Thankfully the Holy Spirit preserves the Church from apostasy in spite of all this. Trump is a secular leader who has sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution, not the teaching of the Catholic Church. Catholics are quite obviously going to hold him to less exacting standards than they hold their religious leaders. One is a political leader; one is a religious leader. If Donald Trump was a bishop I would be outraged. He's not a bishop, a priest, or even a Catholic. Complaining about inconsistencies in how conservative Catholics view the Pope and how they view Donald Trump is just missing all these points. END QUOTE No doubt it will get a snarky reply from Shea and his fanboys and fangirls. The only legitimate point Shea makes is Benedict's praise of Pope Francis, which baffles me.
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Post by cato on Jun 10, 2017 11:12:28 GMT
I see Raphoe diocese (Donegal) has had a Jesuit bishop appointed. Suprisingly Alan Mc Guckian will be Ireland's first jesuit bishop. He seems like a good candidate and is a good communicator which is essential nowadays. He does talk about "listening" however which causes my blood to freeze! I wonder will we see Pope Francis style utterances in the future?
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Post by Séamus on Jul 29, 2017 11:44:35 GMT
Pope Francis seems to have taken an interest in the Charlie Gard case. Perhaps he has his own pastoral-based way of promoting life issues, as well as showing concern for the current state of Western society?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 29, 2017 11:47:05 GMT
The problem is that he is the Pope, not a parish priest. Doctrine is his job.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 29, 2017 11:47:59 GMT
I see Raphoe diocese (Donegal) has had a Jesuit bishop appointed. Suprisingly Alan Mc Guckian will be Ireland's first jesuit bishop. He seems like a good candidate and is a good communicator which is essential nowadays. He does talk about "listening" however which causes my blood to freeze! I wonder will we see Pope Francis style utterances in the future? When a high-placed Catholic starts talking about "listening"...I stop listening.
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Post by ZenoOfCitium on Jul 29, 2017 11:53:19 GMT
We are long past the point where bishops need to take the emphasis off listening and onto leading, preaching and teaching.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 29, 2017 12:02:26 GMT
I don't like to criticize Pope Francis, and I avoid it where possible, but I must admit I'm losing patience with the defences people make of what's happening in this current pontificate.
The faction that pushed for the current Pope's election only narrowly failed in 2005. Their policy is coordinated and methodical. Opponents have been sent to Siberia and an agenda has been pushed through despite the opposition of faithful cardinals and bishops. No, the Popes' words are not being twisted by the media and by conservatives. I spent about four years desperately convincing myself of this but it was a delusion. Let's be honest with ourselves.
Nothing justifies disrespect towards the Holy Father, but perceiving reality doesn't make you a "Francis hater".
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 29, 2017 12:06:09 GMT
We are long past the point where bishops need to take the emphasis off listening and onto leading, preaching and teaching. Yes, it's all about emphasis. Of course the Church should listen. But that's like saying someone who's vastly overweight shouldn't stop eating. Not eating isn't that person's problem-- they should keep eating but cut back on it, and they should concentrate on exercise.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 29, 2017 12:27:43 GMT
I see Raphoe diocese (Donegal) has had a Jesuit bishop appointed. Suprisingly Alan Mc Guckian will be Ireland's first jesuit Etc The amount of Religious bishops appointed in Australia in the last few years has been extraordinary, considering that it's never been an entrenched tradition in Australia, nor is the number of male religious large. Actually, the Jesuit's name is O'Kelly, Bishop of Port Pirie. There's also a Dominican,a Redemptorist,a conventual Franciscan(Vietnamese),a Capuchin(I think Chinese),a Salesian in Perth and Bishop Columba MacBeth-Green, of the Fathers of St Paul the first Hermit, whose background was Scottish, of course, and who still occasionally plays his bagpipes in public (in a kilt, I'm told). This trend actually started in Pope Benedict's time. Macbeth-Green's diocese of Wilcannia-Forbes is traditionally under the patronage of St Columba,appropriately. It's largely semi-desert and was on the brink of suppression after it's last Bishop decided to marry. From what I've heard he's doing quite a job, trying to revitalize it. An inspiration to all diocese of the world. St Columba pray for us
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