|
Post by cato on Nov 4, 2017 13:07:11 GMT
I see Robert Spencer over at Jihad Watch is somewhat critical of our supreme teacher's rose tinted view of the religion of peace. Senior moslem clerics are praising Francis as a defender of Islam. Yes defender of Islam. That's a title no previous pope ever held. Defender of Islam.
|
|
|
Post by Young Ireland on Nov 4, 2017 13:43:49 GMT
I see Robert Spencer over at Jihad Watch is somewhat critical of our supreme teacher's rose tinted view of the religion of peace. Senior moslem clerics are praising Francis as a defender of Islam. Yes defender of Islam. That's a title no previous pope ever held. Defender of Islam. Well, that's not really saying much, given that Mr. Spencer has a very hostile view not just of Islam (arguable) but of Muslims generally, I would take his views with more than a pinch of salt.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Nov 4, 2017 13:49:24 GMT
I see Robert Spencer over at Jihad Watch is somewhat critical of our supreme teacher's rose tinted view of the religion of peace. Senior moslem clerics are praising Francis as a defender of Islam. Yes defender of Islam. That's a title no previous pope ever held. Defender of Islam. Well, that's not really saying much, given that Mr. Spencer has a very hostile view not just of Islam (arguable) but of Muslims generally, I would take his views with more than a pinch of salt. He was quoting praise of the pope by Islamic clerics. Shooting the source won't work on this occasion. Mr Spencer works with and quotes Islamic sources unlike most Islamoapologists and western cheerleaders for the religion of peace. I can't fault his actual quotes from the Koran and Hadith unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by Young Ireland on Nov 4, 2017 14:20:58 GMT
Well, that's not really saying much, given that Mr. Spencer has a very hostile view not just of Islam (arguable) but of Muslims generally, I would take his views with more than a pinch of salt. He was quoting praise of the pope by Islamic clerics. Shooting the source won't work on this occasion. Mr Spencer works with and quotes Islamic sources unlike most Islamoapologists and western cheerleaders for the religion of peace. I can't fault his actual quotes from the Koran and Hadith unfortunately. Do you believe that St. John Paul II was an Islamoapologist when after 9-11 he talked about the need for understanding and a non-violent reponse?
|
|
|
Post by cato on Nov 4, 2017 17:10:32 GMT
He was quoting praise of the pope by Islamic clerics. Shooting the source won't work on this occasion. Mr Spencer works with and quotes Islamic sources unlike most Islamoapologists and western cheerleaders for the religion of peace. I can't fault his actual quotes from the Koran and Hadith unfortunately. Do you believe that St. John Paul II was an Islamoapologist when after 9-11 he talked about the need for understanding and a non-violent reponse? No I don't. I wasn't talking about St John Paul. I don't know enough about what he said back then, but since then we have had over a decade of terror attacks beheadings and an anti christian genocide which has effectively wiped out some of the oldest christian communities on the planet. That's our current context. St John Paul ii condemned all wars even ones in response to armed agression like Iraqs invasion of Kuwait. The Vatican positions itself as a neutral diplomatically and has an anti violence approach almost semi pacifist approach to conflict it seems. This makes perfect sense in a world were we have no dictators , nuclear weapons ,aggressive religious ideologies or nations with historical grudges. If only! Sadly force is sometimes needed to stop bullies and genocide as the Church has traditionally taught. Interestingly it was Islamic Kurds who first defended iraq and syrian christians who were being slaughtered by Isis. Yes there are moderate moslems who died fighting to defend communities abandoned by the western post christian states. Their heroism shames us . The Vatican wringing its hands and issuing pious platitudes in this context about non violence was pathetic. Perhaps the Jews in Warsaw should have opened a dialogue with the SS?
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 4, 2017 18:58:38 GMT
I completely agree, Cato. JPII was great when he defended the traditional teaching of the Church, but his Koran-kissing, internationalist, pacifist leanings are best overlooked.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 5, 2017 9:01:27 GMT
There's a danger of being flippant on this subject. In my view, it's completely appropriate that the Supreme Pontiff would be very tactful when it comes to dealing with Islam, if only for the sake of the Christians being persecuted in Muslim countries. I don't think ordinary Catholics are necessarily subject to the same constraints, although there's no need to be gratuitously inflammatory.
Still...there is an Islamic Society in UCD and recently they had an Anti-Islamaphobia Week. Seeing those posters, I admit, made my blood boil, and I thought of going to one of the events to ask them if they might be better of worrying about persecution of Christians in their own patch, and the Islamic terrorism. But I decided against it...let them have their events. I don't bear any ill will to them personally.
St. John Paul's words are quite nuanced, in Crossing the Threshold of Hope:
Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside.
Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity.
Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all.
The Council has also called for the Church to have a dialogue with followers of the "Prophet," and the Church has proceeded to do so. We read in Nostra Aetate: "Even if over the course of centuries Christians and Muslims have had more than a few dissensions and quarrels, this sacred Council now urges all to forget the past.
Later, he says:
Nevertheless, concrete difficulties are not lacking. In countries where fundamentalist movements come to power, human rights and the principle of religious freedom are unfortunately interpreted in a very one-sided way-religious freedom comes to mean freedom to impose on all citizens the "true religion." In these countries the situation of Christians is sometimes terribly disturbing. Fundamentalist attitudes of this nature make reciprocal contacts very difficult. All the same, the Church remains always open to dialogue and cooperation.
Incidentally, I'm pleased to see the Pope in a later chapter acknowledge that "dialogue" has its danger:
Although priests continue to be scarce and the vocations are still too few, religious movements are being born and are flourishing. They arise from a background which is somewhat different from the older Catholic associations, which were more social in nature. These had been inspired by the Church's social doctrine and aimed at the transformation of society, at the establishment of social justice. Several of these movements entered so intensely into dialogue with Marxism that they lost to some degree their Catholic identity.
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Nov 7, 2017 15:32:21 GMT
Hilaire Belloc, the great 20th-century Catholic historian and poet, warned in 1929 that Islam would make a return to the world stage:
We shall almost certainly have to reckon with Islam in the near future. Perhaps, if we lose our Faith, it will rise. For after this subjugation of the Islamic culture by the nominally Christian had already been achieved, the political conquerors of that culture began to notice two disquieting features about it. The first was that its spiritual foundation proved immovable; the second that its area of occupation did not recede, but on the contrary slowly expanded.
In my own youth the decaying power of Islam (for it was still decaying) in the Near East was a strong menace to the peace of Europe. Those old people of whom I speak had grandparents in whose times Islam was still able to menace the West. The Turks besieged Vienna and nearly took it, less than a century before the American Declaration of Independence. Islam was then our superior, especially in military art. There is no reason why its recent inferiority in mechanical construction, whether military or civilian, should continue indefinitely. Even a slight accession of material power would make the further control of Islam by an alien culture difficult. A little more and there will cease that which our time has taken for granted, the physical domination of Islam by the disintegrated Christendom we know.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Nov 7, 2017 19:53:36 GMT
Hilaire Belloc, the great 20th-century Catholic historian and poet, warned in 1929 that Islam would make a return to the world stage: We shall almost certainly have to reckon with Islam in the near future. Perhaps, if we lose our Faith, it will rise. For after this subjugation of the Islamic culture by the nominally Christian had already been achieved, the political conquerors of that culture began to notice two disquieting features about it. The first was that its spiritual foundation proved immovable; the second that its area of occupation did not recede, but on the contrary slowly expanded. In my own youth the decaying power of Islam (for it was still decaying) in the Near East was a strong menace to the peace of Europe. Those old people of whom I speak had grandparents in whose times Islam was still able to menace the West. The Turks besieged Vienna and nearly took it, less than a century before the American Declaration of Independence. Islam was then our superior, especially in military art. There is no reason why its recent inferiority in mechanical construction, whether military or civilian, should continue indefinitely. Even a slight accession of material power would make the further control of Islam by an alien culture difficult. A little more and there will cease that which our time has taken for granted, the physical domination of Islam by the disintegrated Christendom we know. Belloc viewed Islam as being a Christian heresy rather than a seperate religion which is an interesting angle to take. I have just finished his Characters of the Reformation which gives a critical account of many of the main players in the break up of western christendom. Well worth a read. Thought provoking.
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Nov 8, 2017 10:30:49 GMT
I would prescribe to Belloc's view on Islam. I need to read his Characters of the Reformation. Why is there so much to read
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 10, 2017 11:55:11 GMT
Absolutely brilliant comentary on the Francis pontificate, by R.R. Reno in First Things. I think this is the best article I've read on Pope Francis, and the currents in the Vatican right now. It's the second article, titled "Bourgeois Religion" (the first article is also brilliant and well worth reading): www.firstthings.com/article/2017/12/liberal-tradition-yes-liberal-ideology-noI especially liked this definition of "accompaniment": "Saying “no” without saying “no,” which is a way of saying “yes” without saying “yes.”
|
|
|
Post by seangladium on Nov 10, 2017 16:10:08 GMT
Absolutely brilliant comentary on the Francis pontificate, by R.R. Reno in First Things. I think this is the best article I've read on Pope Francis, and the currents in the Vatican right now. It's the second article, titled "Bourgeois Religion" (the first article is also brilliant and well worth reading): www.firstthings.com/article/2017/12/liberal-tradition-yes-liberal-ideology-noI especially liked this definition of "accompaniment": "Saying “no” without saying “no,” which is a way of saying “yes” without saying “yes.” I agree with you on the article and especially the "“no” without saying “no,” which is a way of saying “yes” without saying “yes”" part. That really sums up a lot of what has been going on. In response to the liberal view that the Church as a bourgeois religion needs to conform with the current zeitgeist, I kept thinking throughout the article a couple of things Christ said: Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." and John 15:18-19 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." I really cannot fathom how those who want to get along with the world can reconcile Christ's own words with their strategy of "accompaniment" which really means -> accommodation!
|
|
|
Post by cato on Nov 10, 2017 19:42:47 GMT
The Vatican has just condemned the ownership and not as before, the actual use of nuclear weapons against civilians. Nuclear deterence has been at the heart of western security since the second world war. The Vatican position is now the classic CND position. This seems to be another example of Francis's doctrinal "development" in action
As nuclear weapons cannot be uninvented and are extremely unlikely to be abandoned for good strategic reasons this self indulgent kumbyya nonsense is just more pandering to right minded middle class mainly European leftists.I can imagine the Holy Father humming John Lennon's Imagine as he propelled the barque of Peter in another leftward u turn.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 10, 2017 21:16:10 GMT
In your capacity as God, I do wish you would intervene.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 10, 2017 21:18:07 GMT
Although, since nuclear weapons can't NOT be used against civilians, I do wonder if there is something to be said for this.
(Not that I think disarmament is a runner.)
|
|