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Post by irishconfederate on Feb 22, 2018 23:06:08 GMT
Here is the list of positives as I see them. 1) Latin is universal in a way that national languages aren't; it will be the same Mass everywhere in the world. 2) It's a solemn and dignified language. 3) It's good to have a language especially set aside for sacred matters, to distance them from mundane things. 4) As Séamus said, it cuts out the need for repeated and contentious "updating" of liturgical language. 5) It's the language of ancient Rome, which played and plays a providential role in the history of Catholicism. Those are pretty much it, I guess. Another one is it's harder to learn Latin than to hear your own tongue, and people -and I think especially men- want a religion that challenges them. And then there's people out there who don't want to focus on the words of the Mass and are glad it's in a foreign tongue so they can just rest in the 'silence'. Latin suits contemplatives.
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Post by irishconfederate on Feb 22, 2018 23:15:00 GMT
I attended three High Masses and one low Mass in St. Kevin's. They were fine, but I wasn't swept away or anything. The biggest thing I appreciated was that everybody received on the tongue. And I didn't appreciate the choir singing-- seems more like a performance than worship. I find it interesting that you did not appreciate the choir singing. I think this may be an Irish thing. I have heard plenty an old lady say you can't get a low Mass. I believe it comes from the penal times. But Chant has been with the Church since the Temple!!! I have to admit I do love the silence of a low Mass and haven't yet seen the richness of a high Mass. But I'm sure it's there. It does seem a bit too orchestrated for my liking. I don't think a preference for the low Mass is because of Penal times myself.
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Post by irishconfederate on Feb 22, 2018 23:26:48 GMT
PS The only places I know in Dublin that offer anything like the Reform of the Reform are the two High Anglican Churches. God has an ironic streak. The Pro-Cathedral offered a Novus Ordo Latin Mass on a Sunday, not sure if it's still going.
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Post by cato on Feb 22, 2018 23:34:23 GMT
PS The only places I know in Dublin that offer anything like the Reform of the Reform are the two High Anglican Churches. God has an ironic streak. The Pro-Cathedral offered a Novus Ordo Latin Mass on a Sunday, not sure if it's still going. Unfortunately it was very much apart from the music and the latin a standard novus ordo celebration. Not that a sung latin mass is anything to sniff at. The priest faces the congregation at all times and the homilies were woeful unfortunately. I d willingly scrap latin if the priest faced east and preached catholic doctrine rather than instantly forgetable pious platitudes. Sorry for the lack of charity at the begining of Lent.
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Post by irishconfederate on Feb 22, 2018 23:36:32 GMT
As a non-Catholic, I think the Latin Mass is extraordinarily beautiful, but I don't see that there's any scriptural reason for using it, beyond tradition. If people in the Latin speaking part of the Roman Empire hadn't translated the liturgy and Bible, presumably everyone would be quite happy with Greek. There is scriptural backing for the Latin Mass. Above the cross was written Jesus of Nazareth, The King of the Jews and this was written in Hebrew, Latin and Greek. (found in John 19: 19-20) Hebrew, Latin and Greek are the three languages used in the Latin Mass.
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Post by cato on Feb 23, 2018 22:59:57 GMT
I find it interesting that you did not appreciate the choir singing. I think this may be an Irish thing. I have heard plenty an old lady say you can't get a low Mass. I believe it comes from the penal times. But Chant has been with the Church since the Temple!!! I have to admit I do love the silence of a low Mass and haven't yet seen the richness of a high Mass. But I'm sure it's there. It does seem a bit too orchestrated for my liking. I don't think a preference for the low Mass is because of Penal times myself. Irish catholicism has a long term weakness for liturgical minimalism. I suspect protestantism has had more of an influence on catholic attitudes than we care to admit. Early post penal catholic churches often closely resembled their protestant counterparts and were often part paid by sympathetic protestant benefactors. Protestantism and social respectability were powerful influences on 19th century catholicism negatively and positively. In the 20th century we had the vogue for quick masses , saturday night masses etc Mass became an obligation to get out of the way as quickly as possible. Is it any wonder we see such a drastic attendence fall off if we have such an unhealthy mean spirited ambiguous attitude to what Vatican II called the "source and summit" of christian life?
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Post by cato on Feb 23, 2018 23:07:50 GMT
I don't know if anyone has mentioned the useful practical point that at a latin mass all languages/nationalities are on a level playing field. In a multicultural culture the latin liturgy offers a common ground of worship. ( That sounds so 1970s I know but that's where all the cool catholics "are at". Again.)
Ironically the liturgical changes divided catholics into language groups especially in societies where all the church had previously helped unite newcomers in a familiar common rite of Mass. Alas this pastoral advantage was thrown away.
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Post by irishconfederate on Feb 24, 2018 0:00:26 GMT
I have to admit I do love the silence of a low Mass and haven't yet seen the richness of a high Mass. But I'm sure it's there. It does seem a bit too orchestrated for my liking. I don't think a preference for the low Mass is because of Penal times myself. Irish catholicism has a long term weakness for liturgical minimalism. I suspect protestantism has had more of an influence on catholic attitudes than we care to admit. Early post penal catholic churches often closely resembled their protestant counterparts and were often part paid by sympathetic protestant benefactors. Protestantism and social respectability were powerful influences on 19th century catholicism negatively and positively. In the 20th century we had the vogue for quick masses , saturday night masses etc Mass became an obligation to get out of the way as quickly as possible. Is it any wonder we see such a drastic attendence fall off if we have such an unhealthy mean spirited ambiguous attitude to what Vatican II called the "source and summit" of christian life? Just to say that I think that could be the case but it's not mine. I do not see any link inside myself as an Irish Catholic between the above trends and my own like for a low Mass. I like a low Mass because of its silence and the comparative stillness of the priest at the altar with his lone server. I find it aids the contemplation and rest my soul craves. I like it as I like the silence and stillness of Eucharistic Adoration. And if I like it for that then perhaps there are other souls Irish or not who like liturgical minimalism for the same reasons. Also I don't mind Masses that are quicker than usual and I sometimes like them. This doesn't on an individual level and maybe even as a people have to have anything to do with mean spiritedness or ambiguity. I hear in Orthodox churches people stand up, walk around the church, go to statues, go outside and come back in. I get that. Somehow there is this confidence in the priesthood and the efficacy of the holy sacrifice that puts people at ease. I think Chesterton noted that the degree that more recent European man was willing and able to apply himself to long, logically thought out arguments had decreased compared to our ancestors (he noted the newspapers in his own time containing more and more shorter and less argument built pieces) . Perhaps the vogue for quick masses was not unrelated.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 24, 2018 7:02:16 GMT
Irish catholicism has a long term weakness for liturgical minimalism. I suspect protestantism has had more of an influence on catholic attitudes than we care to admit. Early post penal catholic churches often closely resembled their protestant counterparts and were often part paid by sympathetic protestant benefactors. Protestantism and social respectability were powerful influences on 19th century catholicism negatively and positively. In the 20th century we had the vogue for quick masses , saturday night masses etc Mass became an obligation to get out of the way as quickly as possible. Is it any wonder we see such a drastic attendence fall off if we have such an unhealthy mean spirited ambiguous attitude to what Vatican II called the "source and summit" of christian life? Just to say that I think that could be the case but it's not mine. I do not see any link inside myself as an Irish Catholic between the above trends and my own like for a low Mass. I like a low Mass because of its silence and the comparative stillness of the priest at the altar with his lone server. I find it aids the contemplation and rest my soul craves. I like it as I like the silence and stillness of Eucharistic Adoration. And if I like it for that then perhaps there are other souls Irish or not who like liturgical minimalism for the same reasons. Also I don't mind Masses that are quicker than usual and I sometimes like them. This doesn't on an individual level and maybe even as a people have to have anything to do with mean spiritedness or ambiguity. I hear in Orthodox churches people stand up, walk around the church, go to statues, go outside and come back in. I get that. Somehow there is this confidence in the priesthood and the efficacy of the holy sacrifice that puts people at ease. I think Chesterton noted that the degree that more recent European man was willing and able to apply himself to long, logically thought out arguments had decreased compared to our ancestors (he noted the newspapers in his own time containing more and more shorter and less argument built pieces) . Perhaps the vogue for quick masses was not unrelated. Excellent points, irishconfederate. I also have a taste for liturgical understatement (minimalism might be putting it too strongly), and I don't like Masses that go on and on. I'd like to think this isn't any disrespect to the Holy Mass. Although, in contrast to what you said about people coming in and out during Orthodox services, partly it's because I find Mass takes a lot of concentration and it's draining if it goes on too long. I recall Séamus, our Australian member, saying that the Irish are famous in Australian Catholic circles for preferring short Masses, so perhaps the influences Cato mentioned really are operative. I think both your explanations might be compatible-- that is, Protestant influence may have led Irish people towards low Mass, liturgical understatement etc. but they found they liked it for the good reasons you mention.
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Post by kj on Feb 24, 2018 9:15:36 GMT
I had a horrendous moment yesterday that I feel honour-bound to confess.
I popped into a church yesterday evening which turned out to be completely empty. I then noticed a priest up at the altar and realised there was a Mass due to start in five minutes. The thought of being the only person in the congregation terrified me, so I quietly fled, leaving the poor priest to his empty church. I felt and feel horribly ashamed.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 24, 2018 11:17:05 GMT
I had a horrendous moment yesterday that I feel honour-bound to confess. I popped into a church yesterday evening which turned out to be completely empty. I then noticed a priest up at the altar and realised there was a Mass due to start in five minutes. The thought of being the only person in the congregation terrified me, so I quietly fled, leaving the poor priest to his empty church. I felt and feel horribly ashamed. I think I would have rather enjoyed being the only member of the congregation, although it's a sad sign of decline.
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Post by cato on Feb 24, 2018 11:35:37 GMT
I like periods of silence at mass but it is a very rare feature at mass nowadays. Congregations often get an outburst of coughing if there is any silence more than 30 seconds.
I wonder what it says about the Irish attitude to mass if it is preferable without music? Afterall music is such a rich part of Irish life and culture. The idea that this is "traditional" may be applicable to the penal persecution but surely the Irish saints used chant in the celebration of the divine office and mass? By and large Irish clergy and laity are liturgical philistines unfortunately. As a church we do have a pretty minimalistic approach to formal worship.
Similarly when we shave ten minutes off mass what exactly is so important about those ten minutes. What use do we put them to? Don't get me wrong I don't like masses with 3 or 4 speeches and which drag on for ever... but our liturgical tradition tended to stress the minimum necessary for validity or how much of mass could I legitimately be late for before it became sinful. Mass perhaps unconciously was seen as a burden and largely as a obligatory duty on the part of many. This legacy produced a pretty shallow loyalty to the Mass in our own time rather than the love and devotion it deserves.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 24, 2018 13:18:01 GMT
These arguments are usually made in the context of Sunday Mass, but what about weekday Mass?
I go to Mass as often as I reasonably can. I'm very lucky that there is daily lunch-time Mass in UCD, where I work. (During term, anyway.)
Depending on my timetable, I often have to get back to the library at exactly 1:30. The Mass starts at 1:05. One of the two chaplains tends to go in for long silences, which makes me late back to work. I understand why he is doing it, but it means that I've stopped going to Mass on days that I have to be back at 1:30, since I'm a punctual person. I imagine there are many situations such as that.
I do take your point, although I must admit I don't like long silences at Mass, or even in general.
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Post by cato on Feb 24, 2018 13:42:54 GMT
These arguments are usually made in the context of Sunday Mass, but what about weekday Mass? I go to Mass as often as I reasonably can. I'm very lucky that there is daily lunch-time Mass in UCD, where I work. (During term, anyway.) Depending on my timetable, I often have to get back to the library at exactly 1:30. The Mass starts at 1:05. One of the two chaplains tends to go in for long silences, which makes me late back to work. I understand why he is doing it, but it means that I've stopped going to Mass on days that I have to be back at 1:30, since I'm a punctual person. I imagine there are many situations such as that. I do take your point, although I must admit I don't like long silences at Mass, or even in general. I think in context like yours long silences are not really appropriate when people are often using a limited break period to get to mass. Perhaps a gentle word in his ear? What is ideal is not always possible.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Feb 24, 2018 14:17:05 GMT
I did think of that, but I decided that reverence towards the sacrament was more important than my own convenience. I do admire how reverential he is, and I don't want to inhibit it!
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