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Post by cato on Jun 4, 2017 13:23:28 GMT
The most obvious thing about Irish conservatism is its' weakness.
There is no fiscally socially conservative party in Ireland. Conservative Christianity is a minority taste. Cultural conservatives are a rare breed. Being branded as 'right wing' is widely seen as a terrible insult.I have been thinking about this . What do people think? Why is this so?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 4, 2017 13:31:30 GMT
Richard Boyd Barret and his type would probably say that ALL Irish political parties are fiscally conservative.
I've thought about this a lot, as well. I really wonder if it has to do with the long Irish struggle both for national independence and for religious freedom. It may have left us very good at being AGAINST, but not very good at being FOR anything. I realize this fails to account for the fact that Ireland was socially and religiously very conservative for a long time, but that was in the context of Britain being the religious and cultural enemy. This is one theory I've come up with; I'm not saying it's true.
I realize you could say liberals/progressives are in favour of many things, but they are usually abstractions such as "equality"-- I would argue that these philosophies are much more distinguished by what they are against than what they are for.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 5, 2017 15:00:51 GMT
The most obvious thing about Irish conservatism is its' weakness. There is no fiscally socially conservative party in Ireland. Conservative Christianity is a minority taste. Cultural conservatives are a rare breed. Being branded as 'right wing' is widely seen as a terrible insult.I have been thinking about this . What do people think? Why is this so? I think Irish Conservatism is weak because in the Irish heart where ideals (such as freedom, God, love, patriotism, self-sacrifice, service to others, self-denial, love of truth) previously dwelt, today dwells one thing, love of $$$$$$. Other terms for love of $$$$$$ are "consumerism," "materialism," "what can I buy?" and "what's in it for me? (as opposed to what is right)." In short, the Irish have become an apostate and idolatrous people. |
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Post by seangladium on Jun 6, 2017 4:45:00 GMT
The most obvious thing about Irish conservatism is its' weakness. There is no fiscally socially conservative party in Ireland. Conservative Christianity is a minority taste. Cultural conservatives are a rare breed. Being branded as 'right wing' is widely seen as a terrible insult.I have been thinking about this . What do people think? Why is this so? I think Irish Conservatism is weak because in the Irish heart where ideals (such as freedom, God, love, patriotism, self-sacrifice, service to others, self-denial, love of truth) previously dwelt, today dwells one thing, love of $$$$$$. Other terms for love of $$$$$$ are "consumerism," "materialism," "what can I buy?" and "what's in it for me? (as opposed to what is right)." In short, the Irish have become an apostate and idolatrous people. I also think this weakness is driven by the great fear of losing these material goods. I think this fear is a primary weapon used by those who wish to keep the Irish dependent. Fear of economic loss can then lead people to willingly vote away their own national sovereignty as we have seen with the EU. Of course, if people were not so materialistic then this weapon would have no power. |
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Post by kj on Jun 6, 2017 11:02:13 GMT
Weak education system where we have neither Philosophy nor Political Studies.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 11:12:07 GMT
I think Irish Conservatism is weak because in the Irish heart where ideals (such as freedom, God, love, patriotism, self-sacrifice, service to others, self-denial, love of truth) previously dwelt, today dwells one thing, love of $$$$$$. Other terms for love of $$$$$$ are "consumerism," "materialism," "what can I buy?" and "what's in it for me? (as opposed to what is right)." In short, the Irish have become an apostate and idolatrous people. I also think this weakness is driven by the great fear of losing these material goods. I think this fear is a primary weapon used by those who wish to keep the Irish dependent. Fear of economic loss can then lead people to willingly vote away their own national sovereignty as we have seen with the EU. Of course, if people were not so materialistic then this weapon would have no power. Were we ever a people who understood the proper natural order and therefore craved God's righteousness above material goods? |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 6, 2017 11:38:36 GMT
I'm actually not too keen on the proposal to teach philosophy in schools. Just think of how bad religious education is in schools. Philosophy would simply be used to cram students' heads with more leftism. "Critical thinking", for instance, would be rationalism and scientific materialism. Now, you can say that philosophy is neutral and therefore teaching it can't be a harm, but it's a matter of atmosphere and implication.
On a more mundane level, kids have so much to learn already.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 6, 2017 11:47:14 GMT
I'm actually not too keen on the proposal to teach philosophy in schools. Just think of how bad religious education is in schools. Philosophy would simply be used to cram students' heads with more leftism. "Critical thinking", for instance, would be rationalism and scientific materialism. Now, you can say that philosophy is neutral and therefore teaching it can't be a harm, but it's a matter of atmosphere and implication. On a more mundane level, kids have so much to learn already. It it isn't based in Thomism it's Leftist propaganda. Local kids I know who made their first communion don't even know if there are seven persons in God or three. I'm not exaggerating. "First Communion" is about a party, an outfit, and, most importantly, cash gifts. |
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Post by cato on Jun 6, 2017 22:06:27 GMT
One big reason why social conservatism in general is weak is that the leftist liberal 1968 revolution has swept all before it in the West. The right has lost the cultural war. Take any western European country with a strong right wing party. Where other (arguably )than Trump's USA has any advance of the liberal social agenda been reversed? Conservatism has been fighting a strategic retreat for 50 odd years.
Irish society didn't need a formal ideological conservative party up to the 1960s as basically the bulk of the population were fundamentally conservative! This was based largely on religious values and a strong conservative farming sector.The political left challenged the various injustices this society tolerated. The broad liberal left has been on a long march here and is now the largely unchallenged orthodoxy.
Conservatives now occupy the postion leftwingers had in the Ireland of the 1930s. We are the heretics of post catholic post modern Ireland.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 6, 2017 22:09:21 GMT
I saw a banner for a First Communion over a house, with superheroes pictures on it-- a kind of a First Communion equivalent of those awful gaudy stag night and hen night t-shirts.
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Post by MourningIreland on Jun 7, 2017 0:04:51 GMT
I saw a banner for a First Communion over a house, with superheroes pictures on it-- a kind of a First Communion equivalent of those awful gaudy stag night and hen night t-shirts. The Irish do not realise they are being mocked by the victor. |
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Post by cato on Jun 14, 2017 14:01:18 GMT
Another reason for the weakness of Irish conservatism is that it is seen as nasty and uncaring.
The dominant narrative is that the left has a monopoly on caring for people particularly the old , sick and vulnerable.
In addition the various horrific stories of abuse in orphanages schools etc are normally put down to an uncaring catholic conservative ethos. I do believe we had a major problem with brutality towards children in Irish society which was deeply shameful and unchristian. Why society was like this merits some discussion here perhaps?
Conservatism can have a dark side. Much of what is being criticised about the past in Ireland is justified. What is not justified is abusing nuns to push through the death penalty for unborn children.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 14, 2017 14:34:40 GMT
The thing about such an analysis is that many people would consider opposition to abortion to be nasty and uncaring. There is great room for subjectivity in these matters.
I do think conservatism, the right, traditionalism, whatever you want to term it...does tend (I mean, across all its different varities) to emphasise standards and rules more than its opposite, and to an extent this IS uncaring and-- maybe not nasty, but strict.
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Post by cato on Jun 14, 2017 14:56:17 GMT
Caring doesn t involve letting people do what may be harmful or things they may regret. Conservatives object to things like abortion because they care in a holistic manner about mother and child and the socially harmful consequence of abortion. Those who advocate "choice" care about the woman solely ignoring all other considerations. That's uncaring.
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Post by Stephen on Jun 14, 2017 15:04:30 GMT
I think the main reason is the country was run by two Parties (FF, FG) that needed massive support from the Church.
So there was no perceived need until the 90s to form a Conservative moment and at that stage, it was too late.
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