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Post by cato on Aug 29, 2018 10:44:56 GMT
Who left in the Vatican is worthy of becoming the next Pope though? Would anyone here like to become the next Pope, should the opportunity somehow arise? Cardinal Sarah would be my choice. He is African like the great St Augustine, was persecuted by his local marxist regime and is a man of humility. A priest friend who met him said he is a man of great silence . This would be most welcome after the incohetent babble of recent years. He is theologically and liturgically traditional and holy. Holy. Thats a word not commonly bandied around. Sorting out the church will take at least a century. The Africans will do it (imperfect as they are) I suspect. Of course any baptised catholic male over the age of 7 could be eligible. I don't think the cardinals have ever decided to appoint a lay man, who would then have been ordained after he had assented of course. The new pope will need an iron will and a strong stomach.
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Post by cato on Aug 29, 2018 10:46:14 GMT
Who left in the Vatican is worthy of becoming the next Pope though? Would anyone here like to become the next Pope, should the opportunity somehow arise? It would certainly be tempting, but the challenges would be too overwhelming. A lot of people have turned down the papacy through history. Anecdotally a lot of younger priests are turning down offers of being made bishop in Ireland nowadays.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 29, 2018 10:50:22 GMT
A.E. Housman wrote a little poem on this subject. Being an atheist homosexual, I don't think he was ever in great danger of becoming the successor of St. Peter, but his poem is quite accurate, I think:
It is a fearful thing to be The Pope. That cross will not be laid on me I hope. A righteous God would not permit It. The Pope himself must often say After the labours of the day 'It is a fearful thing to be Me.'
However, Pope Francis seems to relish it-- the last I heard, he hadn't taken a single holiday during his reign as Pope.
I'm afraid that none of the names we might advance here are likely to be elected. The best we could hope for would be a moderate rather than a doctrinal reformer.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 29, 2018 12:48:30 GMT
Extraordinarily forceful blog post from Edward Feser, who is a very sober commentator, on this subject. edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/08/hubris-meets-nemesis.htmlI have not looked into the allegations in enough detail to comment myself. It's hard to separate the culture war in the Church from the issues at hand. I admit I would be relieved if Pope Francis resigned, as I have grave concerns about many of his words and actions, and I fear that clouds my judgement on this matter.
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Post by cato on Aug 29, 2018 14:19:19 GMT
]However, Pope Francis seems to relish it-- the last I heard, he hadn't taken a single holiday during his reign as Pope.
I'm afraid that none of the names we might advance here are likely to be elected. The best we could hope for would be a moderate rather than a doctrinal reformer.[/quote]
I believe every one needs rest and recreation and that this decision not to take holidays was seriously mistaken. Leaders need to be at the top of their game regardless of what organisation they head.
As a leader the buck does stop with Francis. His style of leadership has caused chaos which future popes will have to attempt to clear up. Perhaps his forgetfulness about getting the Dubia and complaints about scandalous events is down to overwork and too much pressure.
At some point a future Pope will have to say and do very radical things to address the rot in the Church. Those radical measures may not be the ones the media would hope for. We have a de facto schism when senior clerics deny the explicit words of Christ still apply to us us or that he even said what's in the Gospel accounts.There are many other examples of outrageous heresies taught and believed in by large numbers of catholics.
If Vigano's revelations are true a large swathe of the papal electors who appointed Francis were sympathetic to or involved in sexual abuse or compromised by it. A corrupt cabal were behind his election. That is profoundly depressing. Future generations may see this as fatally undermining his papacy.
Things do need to be clarified urgently and a haughty arrogant refusal to answer questions looks absolutely terrible. I see no merit in refusing to address the biggest crisis on his desk. His job is to teach and speak the truth.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 29, 2018 14:37:30 GMT
I believe every one needs rest and recreation and that this decision not to take holidays was seriously mistaken. Leaders need to be at the top of their game regardless of what organisation they head. I've noticed that Pope Francis has been critical of priests who prize their free time in various documents. It seems quite convenient for him to say this if he is a workaholic. For instance, in Evangeli Gaudium: "At a time when we most need a missionary dynamism which will bring salt and light to the world, many lay people fear that they may be asked to undertake some apostolic work and they seek to avoid any responsibility that may take away from their free time. For example, it has become very difficult today to find trained parish catechists willing to persevere in this work for some years. Something similar is also happening with priests who are obsessed with protecting their free time. This is frequently due to the fact that people feel an overbearing need to guard their personal freedom, as though the task of evangelization was a dangerous poison rather than a joyful response to God’s love which summons us to mission and makes us fulfilled and productive. Some resist giving themselves over completely to mission and thus end up in a state of paralysis and acedia."
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Post by Tomas on Aug 29, 2018 18:53:18 GMT
I believe every one needs rest and recreation I've noticed that Pope Francis has been critical of priests who prize their free time in various documents. It seems quite convenient for him to say this if he is a workaholic. For instance, in Evangeli Gaudium: "At a time when we most need a missionary dynamism which will bring salt and light to the world, many lay people fear that they may be asked to undertake some apostolic work and they seek to avoid any responsibility that may take away from their free time. For example, it has become very difficult today to find trained parish catechists willing to persevere in this work for some years. Something similar is also happening with priests who are obsessed with protecting their free time. This is frequently due to the fact that people feel an overbearing need to guard their personal freedom, as though the task of evangelization was a dangerous poison rather than a joyful response to God’s love which summons us to mission and makes us fulfilled and productive. Some resist giving themselves over completely to mission and thus end up in a state of paralysis and acedia." This view of non stop evangelisation does not make any sense to my senses sadly to say. Would not the opposite occur that someone who tries following such particular (or perhaps even peculiar) advise/demands might run a serious risk of ending up precisely in some frame like that depicted "state of paralysis and acedia" instead? To be fair some saints and also modern ones in the vein of St Josemaria may have insisted on some similar forms of full time engagement too. The fruits may be a test of its suitability.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 19:24:39 GMT
Extraordinarily forceful blog post from Edward Feser, who is a very sober commentator, on this subject. edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/08/hubris-meets-nemesis.htmlI have not looked into the allegations in enough detail to comment myself. It's hard to separate the culture war in the Church from the issues at hand. I admit I would be relieved if Pope Francis resigned, as I have grave concerns about many of his words and actions, and I fear that clouds my judgement on this matter. Vigano stands suspected of war crimes in the culture war by the media without the slightest justification. They smear him on the fraudulent presumption that any accusation by a conservative against a liberal is slander until proven otherwise. Of course slandering the accuser is one of the hallmarks of this sickening affair and the media are proud to join the ranks of the enablers. I worry much more about the mental clarity of the prelates than the people in this affair. Theirs has been the only source of haze; the accusers have remarkably accurate and consistently vindicated. I'm reminded of that scene in Professor Kirke's study in the Narnia tales: Peter: Edmund said that they were only pretending. Prof Kirk: And he's usually the more truthful one, is he? Peter: This would be the first time. Cupich of Chicago, aka Cardinal Rabbit Hole, has signaled the College's lack of appetite to even examine Vigano's charges let alone hold anyone accountable. The Church has been given many chances to reform itself and has dug in its heels at every point. It is time for secular authorities to follow the evidence and pursue indictments and jail time, if warranted, at the highest levels. There is no authority in the Church powerful and willing enough to do the work from inside.
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Post by cato on Aug 29, 2018 20:54:19 GMT
Cupich has said discussing Global warming is more important than dealing with a mere potentially catastrophic church crisis.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 31, 2018 15:14:21 GMT
I posted this on Facebook today:
This is the thing about the Vigano letter. Reaction to it seems to divide among familiar tribal lines. It's impossible not to be swayed by one's views on the Pope Francis pontificate.
About a year ago, I realized I was just getting angrier and angrier at Pope Francis and my rhetoric was getting more intemperate. Every second thing he said seemed to compromise Church doctrine. Reading Catholic history sobered me to the extent that I realized it is always very dangerous to turn against the Pope-- dark forces of rebellion and spiritual pride are unleashed. The Western Schism began when Pope Urban VI apparently went mad after election and he even ended up torturing and executing some of his own cardinals. Nevertheless he remained the true Pope and the line of anti-popes which began when the majority of his cardinals elected another Pope is now accepted as schismatic.
I would be immensely relieved if Pope Francis resigned as I have found his pontificate, to be blunt, traumatic. However, while he is the Pope I will respect him as the vicar of Christ. And always I have the self-doubt: Perhaps I am wrong. Didn't Chesterton say that we want a Church that is right, not where we are right, but where we are wrong? Is it not arrogance to set my judgement against the anointed of God? People say the Pope cannot contradict established doctrine; he says he is not doing so; doesn't the buck stop with him? What anarchy is unleashed when private judgement becomes the rule? Edward Feser says that trying to square some of Francis's declarations with orthodoxy requires absurd mental gymnastics. I feel that way, too. But I wonder how many Arians pointed to John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I", as a slam drunk proof for their heresy, only avoidable by mental gymnastics? Doesn't Matthew 23:9, "call no man your Father", seem capable of reconciliation with Catholic teaching only by mental gymnastics?
I have already been "unfriended" by at least one person, and called a fake Catholic, because of my caution on this issue. As for the specific accusations in the Vigano letter...I take them very seriously, and agree they must be investigated with all rigour, but I am not going to rush to judgement as I know I am swayed by my feelings about Pope Francis.
This is just my take. I may be wrong.
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Post by cato on Aug 31, 2018 22:06:07 GMT
The former Jesuit priest Peter De Rosa outlined a scenario similar to the present reality in his Pope Patrick novel when a fictional Irish pope outflanks the traditionalists by ramming through liberal reforms by papal decree. Conservatives are unable to object given their high regard for the papal office.
St Pope John Paul called for a reimagining of the papacy in his Unum Sint document.Despite talk of service the present pontiff loves being Pope and keeping us guessing about his next move in modifying catholic doctrine and practice.
Perhaps the present crisis is part of a process where the Holy Ghost speaks to the church about the limits of the papacy and how the Petrine office is one of service and not domination or power to change and alter central truths. It has been striking how liberals have been converted to the most craven ultramontane notions of the papacy now a liberal is in control. The conservative over reliance at times on the papacy has proven to be mistaken when the absolute monarch no longer adheres to traditional catholicism.
It is significant no one really adheres to the line that Francis is not a liberal anymore.His true leanings are now out in the open.
Recently I have been reading about bad popes and anti popes of the past. There is no reason why we in 2018 should not be cursed for our collective infidelity with a pope who will cause chaos without formally denying the faith. This may be a test of our fidelity to the words of Christ as handed on by the church for two thousand years.
Perhaps though the Pope is right in what he he has been doing and he is suffering in silence like Christ as a papal biographer is now claiming, referring to the Vigano affair. Perhaps.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 1, 2018 6:52:44 GMT
It is significant no one really adheres to the line that Francis is not a liberal anymore.His true leanings are now out in the open. I noticed this some time back, too. For a long time after his election, many of us were in denial about his liberalism. There was a particular parlour game whereby people quoted things Pope Benedict and Pope Francis had said to show how similar they actually were. Also, it was frequently claimed that the Catholic Church could not be understood in conventional terms of "right" and "left", "conservative" and "liberal". Well, that's true enough, but then again, those terms are never exact, anyway. Pope Francis may have some unusual tendencies for a liberal, such as the famous frequency with which he refers to the Devil, but it's a wilful blindness not to accept that he is, in Catholic terms, a liberal. In some ways his "liberalism" is in continuity with his forebears-- in terms of economics, immigration, environmentalism, the death penalty, his two predecessors were also "liberal". Of course, the big difference is their attitudes to established Church teaching.
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Post by servantofthechief on Sept 2, 2018 0:35:07 GMT
With regards to a new potential Pope, I honestly think the best and most realistic option is dragging Pope Benedict out of retirement, put him on the throne and wait for most of the bad eggs to die off if he can't wipe them out.
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Post by cato on Sept 2, 2018 10:29:18 GMT
With regards to a new potential Pope, I honestly think the best and most realistic option is dragging Pope Benedict out of retirement, put him on the throne and wait for most of the bad eggs to die off if he can't wipe them out. Unfortunately he is now a very fragile old man who lost control of his papal court 5 or 6 years ago. He hasn't the ability to sort things out. The situation is much worse than when he resigned. I fear Francis will polnt blank refuse to resign and will appeal to his leftist secularist allies as he did on Friday with an important address on the dangers of plastic polluting the seas! If you follow the career of Pope emeritus Benedict for all his many strengths he often seemed out of his depth in administration and getting every day mundane tasks done. Archbishop Vigano alledges Mc Carrick ignored the pope's restrictions and paraded about regardless. Why no one in the Vatican thought about making his shady history public in response, seems rather pathetic and spineless.
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Post by Antaine on Sept 2, 2018 13:49:45 GMT
Apparently Cardinal Wuerl had disappeared off the face of the earth, and there may be an attempt to sneak him out of the US. I'm sure that will look good for the Vatican if true. Possibly a rumour, but then we have to wonder where he has gone.
You know, I'm willing to stand in for the next Pope until he's elected. Unorthodox times call for unorthodox measures.
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