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Post by seangladium on Jun 8, 2017 5:25:36 GMT
I thought I would like to discuss the Irish national anthem. Do you like it, or do you think some other song should be used or composed? How much do national anthems really matter?
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 10, 2017 22:34:46 GMT
National Anthems if nothing else, speak of a character of a nation, it is the 'national song' as it were, and if you put any stock in songs or music, it certainly matters what you boast about as the song of your people. There is a very good reason why communists and other idealogues are quick to change emblems, images, flags and, yes, anthems when they come into power. They mean something, and are a statement of nationhood and in the case of ideological takeover, they are a statement of conquest as they have 'changed the song of the nation.' I personally don't mind our current anthem as it is at least somewhat reflective of the Ireland of the Easter Rising, which makes sense even if you don't like how our republic came about for one reason or another, it should be reflective of it as it was the defining period of the republics formation. Like how the American national anthem is about victory in warfare and the French national anthem is very bloody given the history of the French republic. I don't know what Maolseachlain's stance on memes is here, but I couldn't resist posting this one:
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 11, 2017 11:45:58 GMT
I don't like our current national anthem much, but I think we should keep it on the grounds of tradition.
I don't like the tricolour, either, but I think we should keep it for the same reason.
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Post by cato on Jun 11, 2017 13:50:12 GMT
Wasn't there a move by one of those nasty lay catholic groups back in the dark ages before we had RTE that campaigned to have a pierced sacred heart image imposed on the white part of the tricolour to make it less secular and more catholic?
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Post by servantofthechief on Jun 11, 2017 14:05:37 GMT
Wasn't there a move by one of those nasty lay catholic groups back in the dark ages before we had RTE that campaigned to have a pierced sacred heart image imposed on the white part of the tricolour to make it less secular and more catholic? That, in my opinion, would have made the tricolour significantly more interesting as a flag, and would have made a bold statement on the national stage. Personally I do not like the tricolour because of its obvious connotations with the jacobins. If we ever had a change of government or at least political character I think we should change it to something distinctly more unique in any case.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 11, 2017 14:10:56 GMT
My favourite flags are those of Japan, Israel and Canada. I like something very stylized.
Tricolours are boring, as well as Jacobin.
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Post by cato on Jun 11, 2017 18:19:49 GMT
Faith of our Fathers , even though it was written by an English man Fr Faber , would make a perfect national anthem.
It would annoy all the right people especially that tolerant female TD, named after an Irish saint who wants to throw "catholics into the bin".
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 11, 2017 18:25:55 GMT
I miss the days when the national anthem was played every night on RTE, at the end of broadcasting. I think most people miss this, even liberals.
I was recently in a pub (well, a GAA clubhouse) where the anthem was played before closing, but that's a rather republican establishment. Aside from that it's been many years since I heard the anthem played in a social context.
Peter Hitchens, in the Abolition of Britain, says that the British national anthem would once be played before cinema performances!
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Post by cato on Jun 11, 2017 18:35:18 GMT
There was a lovely film of the Irish countryside which was also played during the anthem on RTE back in the olden days of the 1980s. It's probably somewhere on you tube.
I always miss the use of a visual icon of our lady for the Angelus. Even on a purely artistic cultural basis I can't see why at certain times of the year we can t have an image of the madonna from the National Gallery or the book of Kells to accompany the angelus bells. Pluralism is bit too much to hope for I suppose
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Post by seangladium on Jun 13, 2017 4:43:24 GMT
I think the anthem should be kept for now even if it is somewhat imperfect. Additionally, I think changing it now would only further solidify liberal gains in the culture as I am sure a new anthem would enshrine many of their values. As some others stated I am not a big fan of the tricolor flag for its Jacobin connotations either, and I would wish for something a bit more unique to Irish culture. Perhaps something incorporating the four provinces with something like the Sacred Heart image or perhaps Our Lady of Sorrows. Seeing the agony the entire Irish nation has gone through over the centuries these might not be totally inappropriate.
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Post by seaininmacbradaigh on Jun 13, 2017 17:47:51 GMT
The tricolour is perfect as a flag for the Republic of Ireland. It reflects everything about a secular republic as envisioned by the Fathers of Irish Republicanism. In this regard it is appropriate, historically legitimate and offers a banner, representative of its ideals, that can unite its followers around it.
I however have little time or respect for Republicanism in general, and the Irish republic in particular. That disregard can be extended to the deformed French rag they have flying from Leinster house.
It wouldn't be appropriate to include religious motifs or to replace the tricolour with another historical flag for the Irish republic. The state is, after all, officially and legally secular (and has been since the 1870s) and thus inclusion of crosses and religious imagery would be inappropriate, and in my opinion, sacrilegious. Likewise, the use of historical Irish flags such as the Banner of the Provinces, the Saltire of St. Patrick or the Crowned Harp would be wrong as those flags represent values that a Republic simply does not meet.
On the other hand, if the State were to become officially a Catholic or Christian state then religious imagery should be included but, as I said, only if the Bunreacht is amended to officially recognise a faith.
Likewise, the anthem is appropriate for the same reasons and I would regard it as wrong for the state to co-opt a Jacobite or Gaelic Royalist song (they thought about Rosc Catha na Mumhan) or a hymn.
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Post by cato on Jun 13, 2017 23:18:47 GMT
Just wondering where the constitution states the state is secular?
Have you read the preamble to Bunreacht na h Eireann ? It seems to me it's most definitely coming from a nationalist catholic perspective.
Despite the removal of the special position of the catholic church and the ban on divorce the constitution still reflects a broadly catholic/christian democratic liberal world view.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 14, 2017 8:41:13 GMT
It is interesting to me that the founders of the State, and later De Valera, and all the people who voted for his Constitution (most of which, one presumes, were enthusiastic Catholics), didn't seem to see any contradiction between a republic and a society that was unapologetically Catholic. Well, I know the Saorstát was not a republic, but the ideal seems to have been a republic for the overwhelming majority. Nor does the tricolour seem to have been controversial; I understand it was its prominence in the 1916 Rising that led, in great part, to its acceptance as the national flag. I think we are better off sticking to it, whatever happens.
I actually have a tricolour flying over my desk in work. I put it up so long ago I forget about it for long periods. It's an assertion of my patriotism and my belief in nationality. And I think it's taken as such, insofar as anybody notices it. Once, a very left-wing colleague came into my office and saw it and said: "I think paying your taxes is an act of patriotism", a comment so irrelevant it was impossible to respond adequately.
And it's not just that; I really believe in flying the flag. Just as I have my family crest on my keyring. I think we should remember these things all the time, not only in times of war or during the World Cup.
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Post by seaininmacbradaigh on Jun 14, 2017 10:06:13 GMT
Just wondering where the constitution states the state is secular? Have you read the preamble to Bunreacht na h Eireann ? It seems to me it's most definitely coming from a nationalist catholic perspective. Despite the removal of the special position of the catholic church and the ban on divorce the constitution still reflects a broadly catholic/christian democratic liberal world view. Article 44.2, where the State promises not to endow any one religion over another. Factually as well, the state has no established religion and thus is defined as secular. The last established religion we had was the Church of Ireland but that was disestablished in 1869 and we have been a legally secular state since. Just because there exists certain phrases in the Constitution that can be described as broadly Christian in character doesn't mean we are a confessional state. The USA has broadly Christian elements in its Constitution and it is defined and regarded as a secular state. The same can be said of most post Christian states in former Christendom.
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Post by cato on Jun 14, 2017 13:43:20 GMT
There are variety of republics - socialist federal ,Islamic etc. The term secular in our context today is code for hostility to religion specifically catholicism. That hostility is not reflected in the of the actual constitution where the Trinity , Jesus Christ and more generally "God" is explicitly referred to.The earlier Saor Stait Eireann constitution of 1922 is much more explicitly secular.
In practice we have always had practical seperation of church and state but our history and natural law philosophy do underpin the 1937 constitution as recognised by commentators on the origins of the document.
Wolfe Tone's Republicanism came from an enlightenment hostility to revealed religion particularly catholicism. Ironically the various political parties who go on pilgrimage to Bodenstown used to recite a decade of the rosary in Irish. I am sure the soul of Wolfe Tone appreciated the prayers.
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