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Post by Tomas on Jan 16, 2019 15:34:51 GMT
In The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien there are many fascinating details. In all there are 15 entries relating to Ireland or Irish language.
Among the funniest parts besides are some from the letters he received and sent to a certain Mr Sam Gamgee of Brixton Road in London. This man was most curious about the name he had heard in the radio broadcasts of the story! The explanation given in return was extensive and the man was even offered a signed copy of all 3 vols. No Irish relation there.
The first time he set foot on in Eire was just after The Lord of the Rings was finished, in 1949. He wrote a few years later that he had found the air of Ireland "wholly alien" (1955).
A letter from the late 50s includes the following remark: "I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive." Lo! That was a bit sad to read. Even for non-Irish.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 16, 2019 15:44:24 GMT
In The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien there are many fascinating details. In all there are 15 entries relating to Ireland or Irish language. Among the funniest parts besides are some from the letters he received and sent to a certain Mr Sam Gamgee of Brixton Road in London. This man was most curious about the name he had heard in the radio broadcasts of the story! The explanation given in return was extensive and the man was even offered a signed copy of all 3 vols. A letter from the late 50s includes the following remark: "I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive." Lo! That was a bit sad to read. Even for non-Irish. Interesting! I often wonder if the beauty of languages is wholly subjective or partly objetive. Personally, I've never liked Latin, or Spanish, or Italian. I like Russian very much. I think Irish can sound very ugly when it is spoken rapidly and tersely. Gently and mellifluously, I find it very appealing. |
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Post by Tomas on Jan 16, 2019 16:00:00 GMT
In the real Gamgee family there was a nephew to the old Joseph Sampson Gamgee, a renowned surgeon in the 20th century, that bore the name D´Arcy. He was a pioneer in "mathematical biology" whose science later on inspired Alan Turing and Le Corbusier and many more. His father had been professor in Greek some time in Galway... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Arcy_Wentworth_Thompson |
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Post by Tomas on Jan 16, 2019 16:08:51 GMT
In The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien there are many fascinating details. In all there are 15 entries relating to Ireland or Irish language. Among the funniest parts besides are some from the letters he received and sent to a certain Mr Sam Gamgee of Brixton Road in London. This man was most curious about the name he had heard in the radio broadcasts of the story! The explanation given in return was extensive and the man was even offered a signed copy of all 3 vols. A letter from the late 50s includes the following remark: "I go frequently to Ireland (Eire: Southern Ireland) being fond of it and of (most of) its people; but the Irish language I find wholly unattractive." Lo! That was a bit sad to read. Even for non-Irish. Interesting! I often wonder if the beauty of languages is wholly subjective or partly objetive. Personally, I've never liked Latin, or Spanish, or Italian. I like Russian very much. I think Irish can sound very ugly when it is spoken rapidly and tersely. Gently and mellifluously, I find it very appealing. Yes some subjective elements must play a significant role, the examples you give have their supporters and detractors alike no doubt. The teacher I had at gymnasium in English and French said she found Spanish not beautiful at all. I cannot recall her words but it was some rather derogatory remarks. Not so common with lukewarm responses in general in relation to language. |
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Post by Tomas on Jan 16, 2019 16:26:59 GMT
I would really love to come over to Ireland some day to absorb a drop of ancient original Irish still spoken in conversation in 2019! Here is a short thing on finlandssvenska i.e. Swedish as it is spoken in Finland: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnAdovM1xg4Their Swedish has pronounciation that is very unlike any dialects in Sweden and usage of the language is traditionally old in style overall. Beautiful in my ears! And professor Tolkien liked it a lot I think. (My guess only, but he loved Finnish and Finland´s culture and folklore so perhaps a qualified guess...) |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 16, 2019 17:06:54 GMT
I am soon going to transition to speaking and writing only in Old Fingalian, which I consider my true native language. This will involve reconstructing the language almost from scratch, but I look forward to the challenge. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingallian |
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Post by Séamus on Jan 17, 2019 8:26:02 GMT
I would really love to come over to Ireland some day to absorb a drop of ancient original Irish still spoken in conversation in 2019! Here is a short thing on finlandssvenska i.e. Swedish as it is spoken in Finland: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnAdovM1xg4Their Swedish has pronounciation that is very unlike any dialects in Sweden and usage of the language is traditionally old in style overall. Beautiful in my ears! And professor Tolkien liked it a lot I think. (My guess only, but he loved Finnish and Finland´s culture and folklore so perhaps a qualified guess...) Going by snippets I've seen,the 90s Finnish television version of Lord of the Rings (apparently just called 'Hobbits') seemed quite good, despite being probably a much smaller production than the later Peter Jackson series, being made for Finnish speakers. Of course if Scandinavia was a big inspiration to the author they would have had the ideal topography and less need for artificial sets. |
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Post by Tomas on Jan 17, 2019 17:58:14 GMT
I would really love to come over to Ireland some day to absorb a drop of ancient original Irish still spoken in conversation in 2019! Here is a short thing on finlandssvenska i.e. Swedish as it is spoken in Finland: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnAdovM1xg4Their Swedish has pronounciation that is very unlike any dialects in Sweden and usage of the language is traditionally old in style overall. Beautiful in my ears! And professor Tolkien liked it a lot I think. (My guess only, but he loved Finnish and Finland´s culture and folklore so perhaps a qualified guess...) Going by snippets I've seen,the 90s Finnish television version of Lord of the Rings (apparently just called 'Hobbits') seemed quite good, despite being probably a much smaller production than the later Peter Jackson series, being made for Finnish speakers. Of course if Scandinavia was a big inspiration to the author they would have had the ideal topography and less need for artificial sets. A Finnish film of the Ring?!?! I must ask Finnish friends about that! Had no idea. But the old don had a strong love towards Finnish language and the vast forests and lakes would seem ideal... |
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Post by Séamus on Jan 19, 2019 5:32:05 GMT
Going by snippets I've seen,the 90s Finnish television version of Lord of the Rings (apparently just called 'Hobbits') seemed quite good, despite being probably a much smaller production than the later Peter Jackson series, being made for Finnish speakers. Of course if Scandinavia was a big inspiration to the author they would have had the ideal topography and less need for artificial sets. A Finnish film of the Ring?!?! I must ask Finnish friends about that! Had no idea. But the old don had a strong love towards Finnish language and the vast forests and lakes would seem ideal... Apparently it's about the only production to include the mysterious Tom Bambadil character and connected story, which from memory even the producers of the animated version found tedious or irrelevant to the story, but there's probably less about humans and elves in the Finnish production, going by the title. In a sense Tom does seem like a relic of Tollkien's earlier fairy-tale style and the wraiths that he scared off more like his gothic First Age style. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 24, 2019 9:32:52 GMT
A Finnish film of the Ring?!?! I must ask Finnish friends about that! Had no idea. But the old don had a strong love towards Finnish language and the vast forests and lakes would seem ideal... Apparently it's about the only production to include the mysterious Tom Bambadil character and connected story, which from memory even the producers of the animated version found tedious or irrelevant to the story, but there's probably less about humans and elves in the Finnish production, going by the title. In a sense Tom does seem like a relic of Tollkien's earlier fairy-tale style and the wraiths that he scared off more like his gothic First Age style. I always liked the Tom Bombadil sequence. The very fact that it doesn't really advance the plot at all, and that Tom is a strange discrepancy in the world of the Ring, makes the world of the story seem more real and rounded. |
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Post by Séamus on Jan 26, 2019 8:49:03 GMT
Apparently it's about the only production to include the mysterious Tom Bambadil character and connected story, which from memory even the producers of the animated version found tedious or irrelevant to the story, but there's probably less about humans and elves in the Finnish production, going by the title. In a sense Tom does seem like a relic of Tollkien's earlier fairy-tale style and the wraiths that he scared off more like his gothic First Age style. I always liked the Tom Bombadil sequence. The very fact that it doesn't really advance the plot at all, and that Tom is a strange discrepancy in the world of the Ring, makes the world of the story seem more real and rounded. At the same time, there was quite a few characters and groups who played pivotal roles in the saga and then largely disappeared from the plot if not altogether- the ents, the spirits of the dead summoned by Aragorn, a mysterious forest tribe, even the Eagles which recur from the earliest times of MiddleEarth come and go mysteriously. (By the way,whenever someone mentions, which professional journalists sometimes do, that a car has COLLIDED with a tree I'm always wondering wether we've found the ent-wives after all. ) Going back to the original subject, was it not strange that some of the author's names were such fantastic creations and others, like Sackville, so ordinary? He may be excused for not thinking that Gamgee existed of course, yet in HOBBIT we see Gloin,Fili,Kili,Dwalin for the more human-like dwarves but the first trolls that we meet are Tom, Bert and William, also called Bill. It can be speculated whether, had the publication not happened straight away, the story would have developed much and been less of a comedy, yet his invented languages seem to have already been quite developed. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 26, 2019 13:45:12 GMT
I always liked the Tom Bombadil sequence. The very fact that it doesn't really advance the plot at all, and that Tom is a strange discrepancy in the world of the Ring, makes the world of the story seem more real and rounded. At the same time, there was quite a few characters and groups who played pivotal roles in the saga and then largely disappeared from the plot if not altogether- the ents, the spirits of the dead summoned by Aragorn, a mysterious forest tribe, even the Eagles which recur from the earliest times of MiddleEarth come and go mysteriously. (By the way,whenever someone mentions, which professional journalists sometimes do, that a car has COLLIDED with a tree I'm always wondering wether we've found the ent-wives after all. ) Going back to the original subject, was it not strange that some of the author's names were such fantastic creations and others, like Sackville, so ordinary? He may be excused for not thinking that Gamgee existed of course, yet in HOBBIT we see Gloin,Fili,Kili,Dwalin for the more human-like dwarves but the first trolls that we meet are Tom, Bert and William, also called Bill. It can be speculated whether, had the publication not happened straight away, the story would have developed much and been less of a comedy, yet his invented languages seem to have already been quite developed. I think the Shire is supposed to represent England. There is a whole page devoted to this phenomenon in fantastic fiction on the website TV Tropes, to which I am addicted. This is what it has to say about LOTR: In Tolkien's works, specifically The Lord of the Rings, the translation convention is that various 'real' Middle-earth languages are translated to various real-world ones. E.g.: The Westron language (the 'common speech') is translated to English (including names), Rohirric becomes Old English, while the Dwarves get Nordic names. Appendices and supplementary works mention some of the 'real' names that were translated - for example, Frodo Baggins' and Sam Gamgee's 'untranslated Westron' names are Maura Labingi and Banazir Galpsi. According to Tolkien, he invoked the trope to make names from Elvish and other origins feel different from Westron names, to portray the same feeling the hobbits would get when stepping out of the Shire.Isaac Asimov once co-authored a novel, expanded from a short story, called Nightfall. He says in the introduction that he has decided to dispense with all the "spacey" names and terms, and just use their equivalent on earth; the reader can just take as read that this is not to be taken literally. Fair enough, but it takes away a lot of the fun! |
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Post by Tomas on Jan 27, 2019 19:08:11 GMT
I always liked the Tom Bombadil sequence. The very fact that it doesn't really advance the plot at all, and that Tom is a strange discrepancy in the world of the Ring, makes the world of the story seem more real and rounded. At the same time, there was quite a few characters and groups who played pivotal roles in the saga and then largely disappeared from the plot if not altogether- the ents, the spirits of the dead summoned by Aragorn, a mysterious forest tribe, even the Eagles which recur from the earliest times of MiddleEarth come and go mysteriously. (By the way,whenever someone mentions, which professional journalists sometimes do, that a car has COLLIDED with a tree I'm always wondering wether we've found the ent-wives after all. ) Going back to the original subject, was it not strange that some of the author's names were such fantastic creations and others, like Sackville, so ordinary? He may be excused for not thinking that Gamgee existed of course, yet in HOBBIT we see Gloin,Fili,Kili,Dwalin for the more human-like dwarves but the first trolls that we meet are Tom, Bert and William, also called Bill. It can be speculated whether, had the publication not happened straight away, the story would have developed much and been less of a comedy, yet his invented languages seem to have already been quite developed. Many name issues appears to have lavished from the genius mind of the author and being double or triple distilled and ably scrutinised so they are thus close to impeccable. Even if some oddities remain in the earlier parts others could hardly had been anything else than what was printed. For a foreign ear it is often not that easy to hear the differences between real and invented names. Tom, Bert and William excepted. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 27, 2019 19:41:33 GMT
At the same time, there was quite a few characters and groups who played pivotal roles in the saga and then largely disappeared from the plot if not altogether- the ents, the spirits of the dead summoned by Aragorn, a mysterious forest tribe, even the Eagles which recur from the earliest times of MiddleEarth come and go mysteriously. (By the way,whenever someone mentions, which professional journalists sometimes do, that a car has COLLIDED with a tree I'm always wondering wether we've found the ent-wives after all. ) Going back to the original subject, was it not strange that some of the author's names were such fantastic creations and others, like Sackville, so ordinary? He may be excused for not thinking that Gamgee existed of course, yet in HOBBIT we see Gloin,Fili,Kili,Dwalin for the more human-like dwarves but the first trolls that we meet are Tom, Bert and William, also called Bill. It can be speculated whether, had the publication not happened straight away, the story would have developed much and been less of a comedy, yet his invented languages seem to have already been quite developed. Many name issues appears to have lavished from the genius mind of the author and being double or triple distilled and ably scrutinised so they are thus close to impeccable. Even if some oddities remain in the earlier parts others could hardly had been anything else than what was printed. For a foreign ear it is often not that easy to hear the differences between real and invented names. Tom, Bert and William excepted. The Lord of the Rings played a big part in my childhood. I tried to read it in more recent years and was incredibly bored. All that rabbit-skinning and natural description. Apparently Tolkien's friends hated going on walks with him because he would spend ages looking at shrubs. That's how I feel about his writing. |
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Post by Séamus on Jan 29, 2019 12:06:12 GMT
Many name issues appears to have lavished from the genius mind of the author and being double or triple distilled and ably scrutinised so they are thus close to impeccable. Even if some oddities remain in the earlier parts others could hardly had been anything else than what was printed. For a foreign ear it is often not that easy to hear the differences between real and invented names. Tom, Bert and William excepted. The Lord of the Rings played a big part in my childhood. I tried to read it in more recent years and was incredibly bored. All that rabbit-skinning and natural description. Apparently Tolkien's friends hated going on walks with him because he would spend ages looking at shrubs. That's how I feel about his writing. I do like intricate descriptions in novels. Sometimes. All styles in moderation. With Tollkien I've often wished for more description, as some of his created beings I find it hard to visualise. I've taken interest in depictions in the few film productions, but I'm not sure of some of these.... I have a decade-old article by a Dr Kenton Craven who's described as "a wandering teacher/scholar without portfolio currently teaching Honours and English and World Literatures at Tennessee University in Cookeville; he had taught widely throughout the US, and in the Kingdom of Kuwait and the Sultanate of Oman" Extraordinary in itself. I don't agree in toto with the beneath paragraph as I've enjoyed some of the writers mentioned and think them quite genius- "I lived through much of the twentieth century and dutifully read it's literary canons: Faulkner, Joyce, Proust, Lawrence, Kafka, Mann, Borges and their cousins and imitators. For me, the smoke had cleared after a century of rebellion and narrative experimentation, and I find two great works standing above the rubble of innovation and deconstruction- JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and Sigrid Undset's Kristin Lavransdatter, the Chartres and Notre Dame of modern narrative fiction. In some measure my preferences may be chalked up to taste, but I would like to suggest that what I would call traditional storytelling, straightforward narrative as practised by Tollkien and Undset, in which technique is masterfully subordinated to the nearly invisible unfolding of a vision by an omniscient author is best capable of rendering a universal vision of reality. I mean a rendering that satisfies the deepest hunger of the heart for divine mysteries, not the superficial hungers for easy resolutions catered to by the formula writers who fill the bookstores" The article was actually about Undset's Kristin Lavransdatter and Tiina Nunnally's clear English translation. |
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