|
Post by cato on Jan 16, 2019 20:59:48 GMT
I am starting this thread to explore what post catholic post nationalist multiethnic Ireland believes in , what values it holds in common. Much of what defines it is negative , it does reject much of traditional conservative Ireland. It would also say this is a good thing as there was much hypocrisy , cruelty and narrowness in the old Ireland.
Part of what I am doing is a devil's advocate exercise but it is worthwhile looking at the image modern Ireland has of itself. The taoiseach articulated this vision in his speech to the pope last August in Dublin castle. Perhaps this speech will be seen as the antithesis of the famous Dancing at the Crossroads Speech of Eamonn De Valera. Needless to say I disagree with much of what follows!
To replace the idea of a white uniform Gaelic speaking isolationist Catholic state seeking the unification of all Ireland if necessary by force we now have a state that is;
1)Free. Personal freedom is highly valued in Ireland. People have never had as much freedom to be themselves , to choose and to do what they want regardless of social disaproval. People can travel the world , marry whoever they like , read what they like, have as many children as they choose or choose not to. No Church tells people what to do or bullies them any more.
2) Outward and Global. Ireland is like Canada , Australia and the USA an outward nation prepared to generously welcome immigrants. We are no longer obsessed by our relationship with Britain but are proud independent members of the EU which has helped bring prosperity and peace to our shores. We are in the top ten of wealthiest countries in the world. Abroad we stand for peace and human rights .
3) Socially progressive. We are now a liberal country. We are generous to minorities and we strive to include all and to protect our vulnerable. Modern Ireland is a more caring compassionate place.
4) Religious pluralism is now a fact. Much of the demise of Irish Catholicism was self inflicted and had little to do with anti catholic attitudes in the media or from the left. People left the church when they felt free to do so. Either they stopped believing , were disgusted at abuse or they couldn't be bothered going through a meaningless ritual. We can now believe freely or not without compulsion.
5) We are an economic success. A nation that cannot fund itself is a failure. We have come out of the most serious economic crisis in our history as an independent state. This is a major achievement that we should all be proud of.
6) Modern Ireland is new but it values the old. Our Taoiseach is the son of Indian immigrants , one of the first gay leaders of any country. He has learned Irish in recent years and is a strong defender of our national interests. Many of our young people are passionate activists and advocates for change and a more compassionate Ireland and world , particularly the environment.
The old Ireland is not dead . It has changed and is still a warm welcoming distinctive place. People of faith are free to believe. People can peacefully strive to unite our island and we still value our native language and traditions. We are now kinder and more inclusive.
Please feel free to comment or add .
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 16, 2019 21:25:42 GMT
I am starting this thread to explore what post catholic post nationalist multiethnic Ireland believes in , what values it holds in common. Much of what defines it is negative , it does reject much of traditional conservative Ireland. It would also say this is a good thing as there was much hypocrisy , cruelty and narrowness in the old Ireland. Part of what I am doing is a devil's advocate exercise but it is worthwhile looking at the image modern Ireland has of itself. The taoiseach articulated this vision in his speech to the pope last August in Dublin castle. Perhaps this speech will be seen as the antithesis of the famous Dancing at the Crossroads Speech of Eamonn De Valera. Needless to say I disagree with much of what follows! To replace the idea of a white uniform Gaelic speaking isolationist Catholic state seeking the unification of all Ireland if necessary by force we now have a state that is; 1)Free. Personal freedom is highly valued in Ireland. People have never had as much freedom to be themselves , to choose and to do what they want regardless of social disaproval. People can travel the world , marry whoever they like , read what they like, have as many children as they choose or choose not to. No Church tells people what to do or bullies them any more. 2) Outward and Global. Ireland is like Canada , Australia and the USA an outward nation prepared to generously welcome immigrants. We are no longer obsessed by our relationship with Britain but are proud independent members of the EU which has helped bring prosperity and peace to our shores. We are in the top ten of wealthiest countries in the world. Abroad we stand for peace and human rights . 3) Socially progressive. We are now a liberal country. We are generous to minorities and we strive to include all and to protect our vulnerable. Modern Ireland is a more caring compassionate place. 4) Religious pluralism is now a fact. Much of the demise of Irish Catholicism was self inflicted and had little to do with anti catholic attitudes in the media or from the left. People left the church when they felt free to do so. Either they stopped believing , were disgusted at abuse or they couldn't be bothered going through a meaningless ritual. We can now believe freely or not without compulsion. 5) We are an economic success. A nation that cannot fund itself is a failure. We have come out of the most serious economic crisis in our history as an independent state. This is a major achievement that we should all be proud of. 6) Modern Ireland is new but it values the old. Our Taoiseach is the son of Indian immigrants , one of the first gay leaders of any country. He has learned Irish in recent years and is a strong defender of our national interests. Many of our young people are passionate activists and advocates for change and a more compassionate Ireland and world , particularly the environment. The old Ireland is not dead . It has changed and is still a warm welcoming distinctive place. People of faith are free to believe. People can peacefully strive to unite our island and we still value our native language and traditions. We are now kinder and more inclusive. Please feel free to comment or add . I think that's an excellent presentation of what modern Ireland thinks of itself, Cato. Especially the sixth item on the list. I do think that for every fanatic like Fintan O'Toole there are many, many more people who don't especially have a hatchet against Dev's Ireland, who think there is plenty of room for tradition and faith and wonder why conservatives are so upset. And they are very sincere in this.
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Jan 17, 2019 8:02:22 GMT
I am starting this thread...etc.. 5) We are an economic success. A nation that cannot fund itself is a failure. We have come out of the most serious economic crisis in our history as an independent state. This is a major achievement that we should all be proud of. 6) Modern Ireland is new but it values the old...etc... Please feel free to comment or add . An expat Irishman who writes in the travel column of the WEST AUSTRALIAN has an article in today's edition about his latest visit to Dublin. I was going to insert the quote below in with the Irish customs, but it might tie in with what you say also: "Dublin's public transport can also give an insight into it's class system, the DART had even coined it's own accent- the Dort speak of Dublin 4(postcode matters in Dublin). These elongated vowels that mark Dublin's South-side private-school going, rugby-loving wealthier class. Car becomes cor, man mon, right roysh. A trip on the Luas green line will bring you to one of their favourite haunts, the up-market Dundrum Town Centre. There a burger, Cajun fries and milkshake will set you back 19.95 euro at trendy no-frills Five Guys." comment: comparison with Perth prices depends on how 'junk food' the establishment claims to be "Another quirk of Dublin's class system is that D4 parents are more likely to give their offspring old Irish names- Fionn,Oisinn,Sorcha,Saoirse and every non-Irish person's nightmare: Caoimhe, while less well-off prefer Jason, Darren, Natalie or whatever the reality star of the day/Premier league wag called their bundle of joy. While many South-side inhabitants will look on you with horror if you suggest it,a trip in the Luas blue line to the working class suburb of Tallaght will show you a whole different world. Pure Roddy Doyle territory"
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 17, 2019 10:10:51 GMT
I am starting this thread...etc.. 5) We are an economic success. A nation that cannot fund itself is a failure. We have come out of the most serious economic crisis in our history as an independent state. This is a major achievement that we should all be proud of. 6) Modern Ireland is new but it values the old...etc... Please feel free to comment or add . An expat Irishman who writes in the travel column of the WEST AUSTRALIAN has an article in today's edition about his latest visit to Dublin. I was going to insert the quote below in with the Irish customs, but it might tie in with what you say also: "Dublin's public transport can also give an insight into it's class system, the DART had even coined it's own accent- the Dort speak of Dublin 4(postcode matters in Dublin). These elongated vowels that mark Dublin's South-side private-school going, rugby-loving wealthier class. Car becomes cor, man mon, right roysh. A trip on the Luas green line will bring you to one of their favourite haunts, the up-market Dundrum Town Centre. There a burger, Cajun fries and milkshake will set you back 19.95 euro at trendy no-frills Five Guys." comment: comparison with Perth prices depends on how 'junk food' the establishment claims to be "Another quirk of Dublin's class system is that D4 parents are more likely to give their offspring old Irish names- Fionn,Oisinn,Sorcha,Saoirse and every non-Irish person's nightmare: Caoimhe, while less well-off prefer Jason, Darren, Natalie or whatever the reality star of the day/Premier league wag called their bundle of joy. While many South-side inhabitants will look on you with horror if you suggest it,a trip in the Luas blue line to the working class suburb of Tallaght will show you a whole different world. Pure Roddy Doyle territory" As little as I like any kind of political correctness, sometimes I think the inverted snobbery towards Dublin 4 types gets a bit much. There's nothing actually wrong with pronouncing "right" "roysh", or saying that a pub is "jammers". "Mummy" is intrinsically no worse or better than "Ma". I can remember someone once practically apologising to me for coming from Dalkey!
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Jan 19, 2019 5:52:13 GMT
An expat Irishman who writes in the travel column of the WEST AUSTRALIAN has an article in today's edition about his latest visit to Dublin. I was going to insert the quote below in with the Irish customs, but it might tie in with what you say also: "Dublin's public transport can also give an insight into it's class system, the DART had even coined it's own accent- the Dort speak of Dublin 4(postcode matters in Dublin). These elongated vowels that mark Dublin's South-side private-school going, rugby-loving wealthier class. Car becomes cor, man mon, right roysh. A trip on the Luas green line will bring you to one of their favourite haunts, the up-market Dundrum Town Centre. There a burger, Cajun fries and milkshake will set you back 19.95 euro at trendy no-frills Five Guys." comment: comparison with Perth prices depends on how 'junk food' the establishment claims to be "Another quirk of Dublin's class system is that D4 parents are more likely to give their offspring old Irish names- Fionn,Oisinn,Sorcha,Saoirse and every non-Irish person's nightmare: Caoimhe, while less well-off prefer Jason, Darren, Natalie or whatever the reality star of the day/Premier league wag called their bundle of joy. While many South-side inhabitants will look on you with horror if you suggest it,a trip in the Luas blue line to the working class suburb of Tallaght will show you a whole different world. Pure Roddy Doyle territory" As little as I like any kind of political correctness, sometimes I think the inverted snobbery towards Dublin 4 types gets a bit much. There's nothing actually wrong with pronouncing "right" "roysh", or saying that a pub is "jammers". "Mummy" is intrinsically no worse or better than "Ma". I can remember someone once practically apologising to me for coming from Dalkey! If anything,I'm surprised that it hasn't been toned down, as the changes in World economy has made a huge difference around the world as to who is and isn't wealthy, of course 'breeding' being a slightly different thing. I didn't mention that there was a related article by a presumedly non-irish journo who spoke mostly of his experience of visiting Swiny's bookshop, previously chemist, where Joyce's Leopold Bloom bought some lemon soap. The travel-writer walked in just as there was a group reading, mostly tourists, of Joyce- strangely from a different story,DUBLINERS' THE MOTHER. The newspaper wouldn't have picked up the appropriateness of this, as the story speaks much of 'class' in Dublin. Anyway, even the 'new Irish' appreciate books and tourism enough to keep a pretentious olden-type store in operation for pure love!
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 19, 2019 11:41:02 GMT
As little as I like any kind of political correctness, sometimes I think the inverted snobbery towards Dublin 4 types gets a bit much. There's nothing actually wrong with pronouncing "right" "roysh", or saying that a pub is "jammers". "Mummy" is intrinsically no worse or better than "Ma". I can remember someone once practically apologising to me for coming from Dalkey! If anything,I'm surprised that it hasn't been toned down, as the changes in World economy has made a huge difference around the world as to who is and isn't wealthy, of course 'breeding' being a slightly different thing. I didn't mention that there was a related article by a presumedly non-irish journo who spoke mostly of his experience of visiting Swiny's bookshop, previously chemist, where Joyce's Leopold Bloom bought some lemon soap. The travel-writer walked in just as there was a group reading, mostly tourists, of Joyce- strangely from a different story,DUBLINERS' THE MOTHER. The newspaper wouldn't have picked up the appropriateness of this, as the story speaks much of 'class' in Dublin. Anyway, even the 'new Irish' appreciate books and tourism enough to keep a pretentious olden-type store in operation for pure love! One of my recurring fantasies is to have poetry readings beside the statue of Thomas Moore in College Green. I even had a letter in the Irish Times suggesting this many years ago and had a fair few replies from people interested, but I never followed up on it. Yesterday I was toying with the idea of just doing it myself...standing by the statue at evening rush hour and declaiming poetry (not my own)...but I don't have the nerve.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Feb 28, 2019 17:17:57 GMT
Leo Varadkar gave a speech recently in Cairo where he outlined three new Irish values that we must spread to the rest of peoplekind. They are ; 1) Gay Marriage 2)Abortion 3) Opposition to the death penalty
I suspect 3) was tacked on by a speech writer as there are numerous other progressive measures we have implemented in the last few decades.( It is interesting it was our our reactionary forefathers who decided to stop hanging murderers back in the 1950s before the British and the French who guillotened up to the 1970s)
I doubt anyone really cares about our international virtual signalling and I suspect more than a few are in fact privately repelled by a Gay politician forcing his political ideology on foreign traditional societies.
If anyone even 5 years ago had predicted Leo's new Irish values they would have been regarded as nut cases.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Mar 6, 2019 8:32:49 GMT
The Quiet Revolution , the term used by Leo Varadkar in the aftermath of the May 25th catastrophe is now for export.
At an Alliance party conference in the North Varadkar announced he was pushing the Sinn Fein socio-cultural agenda for citizens of Northern Ireland ; Gay Marriage , abortion and "language rights". It is short sighted to adopt the victim identity politics of the left but Leo has never allowed a minor thing like principle to hinder him before.
The Department of Foreign Affairs meanwhile are drafting new guidelines to allow for tax payer cash ( borrowed) to kill unborn Africans . The colonial arrogance of this is staggering but no main stream journalist has discussed this to date.
Varadkar has also said Irish Isis murderers can come "home". No mention of their vile crimes against the defenceless. We are cursed to live in such shameful craven times.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Mar 6, 2019 11:46:59 GMT
PS Varadkar was once apon a time , actually at the last general election, positioning himself as a social and economic conservative. He seems to have departed from all of those, no doubt deeply held, convictions.
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Mar 7, 2019 8:40:22 GMT
The Quiet Revolution , the term used by Leo Varadkar...etc... The Department of Foreign Affairs meanwhile are drafting new guidelines to allow for tax payer cash ( borrowed) to kill unborn Africans . The colonial arrogance of this is staggering but no main stream journalist has discussed this to date...etc... cursed to live in such shameful craven times. It's an unfortunate pendulum that's swung both ways this century. George Bush jr had tried to stop American funding for abortion in Developing Countries. I can't imagine that his efforts survived the following Democrat establishment. Australia actually ceased funding overseas abortion for several years under John Howard, reversed under Kevin Rudd (although,as I understand, Rudd voted against the measure as an individual parliamentarian). The story is an interesting one though: (Australian system of course) an individual Tasmanian independent used the banning of overseas abortion funding as a bargaining point for his vote towards the sale of the government telecom. Actually, I just saw today in an article by a Rebecca Oas, not sure where she's from, that the Kenyan government is unhappy with the activities of Marie Stopes International in their country following official inquiries in which a MSI spokesman admitted "they offer abortions to children without parental guidance". A government agency also "sent police to a Marie Stopes clinic and found underage girls lined up for contraceptive injections". Meanwhile a cafe in London is reportedly now charging £14 for a cup of coffee from beans near-smuggled from a small holding in Yemen. Now, I'm sure that that's really helping to save a few souls from starvation
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Apr 2, 2019 7:04:18 GMT
Cato does a good Job outlining Ireland today.
4) Religious pluralism is now a fact. Mindfulness/New-agism/Wicca/Western esotericism is the New Spirituality which not a "Religion".
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 2, 2019 8:44:55 GMT
Cato does a good Job outlining Ireland today. 4) Religious pluralism is now a fact. Mindfulness/New-agism/Wicca/Western esotericism is the New Spirituality which not a "Religion". Would you really class mindfulness with those others? I'm rather suspicious of it myself, but I'm not sure I'd go that far.
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Apr 2, 2019 12:42:50 GMT
Cato does a good Job outlining Ireland today. 4) Religious pluralism is now a fact. Mindfulness/New-agism/Wicca/Western esotericism is the New Spirituality which not a "Religion". Would you really class mindfulness with those others? I'm rather suspicious of it myself, but I'm not sure I'd go that far. From my experience it is part and parcel with the New age. I was listening to Lady on BBC 4 last week talk about her conversion to Buddhism and a major part was mindfulness meditation.
|
|
|
Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 4, 2019 16:57:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Jun 5, 2019 8:35:44 GMT
As much as I'd never deny how evil Nazism was or Hitler personally became, the 'evil-nazi' cliche has become nothing short of irritating, as if it's the only event in history that we're even allowed to even suggest had evil about it. The other day was the feast of St Charles and the Ugandan martyrs- I read somewhere recently that the locality of their shrine forbids sale of alcohol on their feast out of respect. And we are looking at a seven-digit figure when counting the amount of pilgrims. The same day I read about online criticism towards Navan County councillor Ms Adegua after she thanked God for her election, that she was to leave 'her religion' in Nigeria. We can definitely see the changed boundaries of evangelization. When I was small and we lived in Phibsboro my mother had a St Peter's 'daily mass friend'(now deceased) whose daughter was a lay-worker for the mission-Church in Ghana; a couple of years ago I showed her an article on Cardinal Peter Turkson of the same nation lecturing in Ireland, mostly The North from memory, on family values- one sees the change even in ones lifetime. Israel Folau, when sacked from Rugby Australia for his views on homosexuality, (expressed in his personal social media, which actually led at least one lesbian-activist-journalist to defend his right to personal views, but maybe she had been a fan!) cited the amount of Australian players of Polynesian background who share his conservative and Christian values. Why only non-caucasians?
|
|