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Class
Apr 17, 2019 11:23:46 GMT
Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 17, 2019 11:23:46 GMT
Is social class a bad thing?
Does the working class still exist?
Does the bourgeoisie still exist?
Is an aristocracy/gentry desirable?
Are there virtues particular to a particular class?
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Post by Séamus on Apr 17, 2019 12:28:00 GMT
Is social class a bad thing? Does the working class still exist? Does the bourgeoisie still exist? Is an aristocracy/gentry desirable? Are there virtues particular to a particular class? I find it mindboggling that up to 20% of the old pre-partition Poland's population were said to be aristocrats, most of whom could ascend the Polish throne by vote. It shows that various models existed. More touched on this in UTOPIA. For him privilege meant responsibility. As far as symbolic titles go, even the 'Irish-against' are usually happy to give Constance Markievicz or John McCormack the benefit of their 'count', the latter receiving his from an old papal honour system.
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Post by cato on Apr 17, 2019 12:44:47 GMT
Ireland is classless. That's the official orthodoxy. That's romantic tosh or at worst wilful blindness.
The other extreme are class warriors or those who strongly identify with their class and despise the others. It is possible to be working class and despise the D4s and the Trinity types or vice versa. Generally the middle and upper classes claim to be classless but they never marry below their social class and they generally don't socialise with their social interiors.
In the country things tend to be less rigid but distinctions are there.
Education complicates matters as you can be well educated but poor or rich and barely literate. The Irish class system is one of our deepest and most denied national traits. It may go back to our rigid aristocratic Gaelic societies were status, face and reputation were highly valued.
I like John Majors aspiration to a classless society but only if all of us become classy. Great topic Maolsheachlann. 🎩
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Post by cato on Apr 17, 2019 12:46:40 GMT
Sorry for not actually answering your questions! I 'll do so later.
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Class
Apr 17, 2019 13:06:51 GMT
Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 17, 2019 13:06:51 GMT
Sorry for not actually answering your questions! I 'll do so later. My questions were only an attempt to get the ball rolling....that's always the case!
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Class
Apr 17, 2019 13:07:59 GMT
cato likes this
Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 17, 2019 13:07:59 GMT
I like John Majors aspiration to a classless society but only if all of us become classy. Great topic Maolsheachlann. 🎩 That reminds me of Chesterton's complaint (defending his reluctance to use first names familiarly) that equality could have meant universal civility instead of universal incivility.
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Post by cato on Apr 17, 2019 16:46:55 GMT
In the former Labour MP Chris Mullan's novel A Very British Coup the radical Labour prime minister Harry Perkins is quizzed by a horrified aide "Do you mean to abolish first class train fares "? "No we'll abolish 2nd class and we can all travel first class" replied Perkins. A noble aspiration.
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Post by servantofthechief on Apr 26, 2019 15:50:26 GMT
he question as to whether class 'should' exist, is a marxist misdirection: its begging the question, and framing the discussion in a way that assumes class is a burden or at best, a necessary evil. Class simply is the result of humans living in a society, we're social creatures and more than that, we are capable of reason and the raw differences between ability and talent will cause divisions within our society by default, class is actually one way or ameliorating this state of affairs by giving social stability of one form or another, recognizing differences between people existing but at the same time not allowing these differences to be the sole determinator of social positioning, being a Biased descendant of Christendom, I think our civilization got this right more than others before things went to hell from the 19th century on to our current, willfully blind, hypocritical mess.
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Class
Apr 26, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 26, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
he question as to whether class 'should' exist, is a marxist misdirection: its begging the question, and framing the discussion in a way that assumes class is a burden or at best, a necessary evil. Class simply is the result of humans living in a society, we're social creatures and more than that, we are capable of reason and the raw differences between ability and talent will cause divisions within our society by default, class is actually one way or ameliorating this state of affairs by giving social stability of one form or another, recognizing differences between people existing but at the same time not allowing these differences to be the sole determinator of social positioning, being a Biased descendant of Christendom, I think our civilization got this right more than others before things went to hell from the 19th century on to our current, willfully blind, hypocritical mess. I think you touch on one of the arguments in favour of class; it rather softens the ruthlessness and uncertainty of meritocracy.
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Post by Tomas on May 4, 2019 13:59:32 GMT
I have often wondered over the second question. The answer depends on what angle to look at. In terms of work it doesn´t make much sense anymore. Naturally there are different levels etc but the structured fabric of a whole class holding together by doing similar "menial" work no longer exists. Also many people whom by earlier generations would be seen as working class today often have both salaries and types and amounts of work that a middle class person only 50 years back could feel envious of. (The only thing against this picture is basically that the all too well known problems of real poverty and real menial work, cheap labour and many nasty kinds of falseness, also exists still today, only away and apart from the abstract model of the "developed" modern West of badly brewed capitalist socialism.)
On the other spectrum a bourgeoisie and a gentry seems way out away of their old cultural social business and more than a little bit marginalised in politics at least. So basically what remains central is more like a wide spread of lower middle class values and a great mass of people who have moved, voluntarily or perhaps more often not, towards that middle class dream/nightmare that is nowadays in charge (either upwards from working class or downwards from previous wellbeing).
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Post by Tomas on May 4, 2019 14:20:03 GMT
The most astonishing news from the last months was perhaps that some of those extremely extreme rich that rules "our" world now suddenly appears to feel a bit nervous that their own evil empires (probably good empires in their own estimations) are actually at risk of breaking and drawing any good values left along in the downfall. If the natural world says no to evil, perhaps some at last will convert before it ends with a crash?
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