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Post by cato on May 20, 2019 10:40:59 GMT
I still remember the first divorce referendum in the 1980s when the Irish electorate in a shock vote rejected Garret Fitzgeralds attempt to repeal the constitutional ban on divorce. The second vote in the 1990s squeaked in by a tiny majority.
The current referendum to allow the Dail to liberalize divorce further is a damp squib. No one believes it will fail. There has been no attempt to resist the latest move in sharp contrast to the vigor of previous debates.
This non debate shows how sweeping the victory of social liberalism has been and how demoralised and weak Irish conservatism is in 2019.Divorce hasn't (so far) become a casual thing . People are quite cautious around marriage. Mote concerning is universal pre marital cohabitation and falling numbers of those who do marry.
Fine Gael have urged a yes vote based on compassion , and addressing emotional and financial distress... This sounds very much like their argument for every previous piece of social liberalisation. As the government party their policies have ironically helped cause much of ordinary couple's financial distress in the first place.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 20, 2019 12:41:59 GMT
It's interesting that the Irish divorce rate is still quite low, a fact thrown into our face every time there is a referendum on social issues, with the inevitable mention of the slogan: "Hello Divorce, Goodbye Daddy".
As far as I can see, most Irish people are happy to live a life which is actually not that different from their parents-- stable marriage, family, (fairly) traditional gender roles, First Communions, church weddings and funerals, etc.-- while simultaneously supporting every liberal-left measure of social reform.
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Post by cato on May 23, 2019 14:19:45 GMT
I have been thinking of how Irish people are often quite small c conservative despite being quite sympathetic or tolerant of wider liberal trends. Part of this may be a general tolerant live and let live attitude which is quite widespread and is admirable in some ways. I may for example vote for things like divorce or abortion access out of a sense of compassion but would not dream of accessing them personally. This attitude seems to ignores the long term impact on social behaviour and outlook of permitting or subsidising policies which may cause immense social and moral damage in the long run.
I have heard it said that Dutch middle class people are quite conservative in regard to marriage and having children out of wedlock despite the ultra liberal attitude to sexual morality in general. Middle class people tend to have a higher rate of marriage , a low rate of non marital births and a dedicated interest in the educational progress of their children.
People in Ireland have been putting marriage on hold and are marrying when older and more and more often in a secular or humanistic ceremony. An extended adolescence into the the 30s is common and many couples cannot afford their own accommodation and are delaying having children until they are into their 40s. Often this is not a free choice but an economically driven reality.
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Post by assisi on May 23, 2019 19:59:26 GMT
I have been thinking of how Irish people are often quite small c conservative despite being quite sympathetic or tolerant of wider liberal trends. Part of this may be a general tolerant live and let live attitude which is quite widespread and is admirable in some ways. I may for example vote for things like divorce or abortion access out of a sense of compassion but would not dream of accessing them personally. This attitude seems to ignores the long term impact on social behaviour and outlook of permitting or subsidising policies which may cause immense social and moral damage in the long run. I have heard it said that Dutch middle class people are quite conservative in regard to marriage and having children out of wedlock despite the ultra liberal attitude to sexual morality in general. Middle class people tend to have a higher rate of marriage , a low rate of non marital births and a dedicated interest in the educational progress of their children. People in Ireland have been putting marriage on hold and are marrying when older and more and more often in a secular or humanistic ceremony. An extended adolescence into the the 30s is common and many couples cannot afford their own accommodation and are delaying having children until they are into their 40s. Often this is not a free choice but an economically driven reality. Yes, I would agree with what you say. In my experience, the otherwise conservative/Catholic people vote for these type of things due to the lack of seeing the 'big picture'. They may see themselves as supporting gay 'marriage' for compassionate and tolerant reasons but fail to see (or don't wish to see) that this issue is just one of many carefully planned by left liberals and globalists to destroy Christian western society. |
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Post by Séamus on May 25, 2019 12:12:56 GMT
I have been thinking of how Irish people are often quite small c conservative despite being quite sympathetic or tolerant of wider liberal trends. Part of this may be a general tolerant live and let live attitude which is quite widespread and is admirable in some ways. I may for example vote for things like divorce or abortion access out of a sense of compassion but would not dream of accessing them personally. This attitude seems to ignores the long term impact on social behaviour and outlook of permitting or subsidising policies which may cause immense social and moral damage in the long run. I have heard it said that Dutch middle class people are quite conservative in regard to marriage and having children out of wedlock despite the ultra liberal attitude to sexual morality in general. Middle class people tend to have a higher rate of marriage , a low rate of non marital births and a dedicated interest in the educational progress of their children. People in Ireland have been putting marriage on hold and are marrying when older and more and more often in a secular or humanistic ceremony. An extended adolescence into the the 30s is common and many couples cannot afford their own accommodation and are delaying having children until they are into their 40s. Often this is not a free choice but an economically driven reality. Yes, I would agree with what you say. In my experience, the otherwise conservative/Catholic people vote for these type of things due to the lack of seeing the 'big picture'. They may see themselves as supporting gay 'marriage' for compassionate and tolerant reasons but fail to see (or don't wish to see) that this issue is just one of many carefully planned by left liberals and globalists to destroy Christian western society. Snips of the past in forgotten publications can be interesting at times. I'm currently going through three old books about Ireland, giving commentaries on the thought current at the time of publication: the 1950s,60s and early 80s. Three contributors, Conor Cruise O'Brien, Patrick Lynch and Vincent Buckley (who's actually Australian but was a Trinity academic and resided in Dublin on-and-off for years) claimed the same thing- the Irish churchmen were conservative as a product and at the active instigation of the general populace, not, as we usually hear, the other way around. O'Brien, speaking of the legendary Mother&Child scheme and Buckley, speaking of the original 8th Amendment referendum, both claim that Bishops found their voice through the prodding of others, Catholic doctors in the case of the former, national and international anti-abortion movements in the case of the latter. Lynch, mostly writing about economics, praised Pope John XXIII twice, predicting that his legacy would lead priests and Catholics to a more socialist attitude. Certainly Dr Noel Browne's then-party was voted out of existence a few years later, although I'd imagine Mother&Child was pretty innocuous when compared to today's legislations |
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Post by cato on Jun 6, 2019 13:25:49 GMT
For the record the referendum passed by around an 80 to 20 margin. Even though there was no organised anti campaign one fifth of those who voted wished to preserve the status quo.
I wonder is this one fifth a conservative core or are there people who are always agin the government? I am generally both now.
The vote for social conservatives in the other two votes was very low generally under 3% I believe. I will try to hunt down precise figures.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 6, 2019 13:39:59 GMT
For the record the referendum passed by around an 80 to 20 margin. Even though there was no organised anti campaign one fifth of those who voted wished to preserve the status quo. I wonder is this one fifth a conservative core or are there people who are always agin the government? I am generally both now. The vote for social conservatives in the other two votes was very low generally under 3% I believe. I will try to hunt down precise figures. David Quinn says that the Iona Institute received no request from its donors or supporters to campaign on this issue. |
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Post by hilary on Jun 6, 2019 16:18:15 GMT
David Quinn was on the radio debating the divorce referendum with Minister Josepha Madigan a while before the vote. He called for research into marriage breakdown in Ireland - a very sensible idea, I think most people would agree.
One of the Minister's comments was "if you're so concerned about marriage how come you opposed same sex marriage?".
I was a bit disappointed that the government launched the Referendum campaign at the offices of the Law Society of Ireland and the Law Society backed a 'yes' vote, as they did with the same sex marriage referendum. I'm sure at least some solicitors would see this as the Society overstepping the mark a bit. The Society has a regulatory, representative and education role but also wants to influence law obviously.
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Post by cato on Jun 6, 2019 18:29:36 GMT
David Quinn was on the radio debating the divorce referendum with Minister Josepha Madigan a while before the vote. He called for research into marriage breakdown in Ireland - a very sensible idea, I think most people would agree. One of the Minister's comments was "if you're so concerned about marriage how come you opposed same sex marriage?". Minister Madigans smart alec remarks are a bit like the pro choicers who demand that pro lifers advocate free universal contraception or personally adopt all unwanted children in order to be "consistent ". She should stick to her main job of saying mass and stay out of politics. |
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