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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 29, 2019 12:29:36 GMT
I thought it would be interesting to have a thread dedicated to Patrick Pearse, who was such a major figure in Irish history, and especially in the history of Irish nationalism.
He seems to be a favourite of the populist right in Ireland-- very often his image is used as an internet avatar by Irish populists. And Justin Barrett seems to model himself upon him.
It's hard to know what Pearse would make of this. His legacy seems to have been disputed almost from the moment he was executed.
I can't imagine he would have much time for whatever remains of mainstream Irish republicanism. (Let us remember that Fianna Fáil, who his sister and mother supported, still call themselves the "Republican Party"). And as for Sinn Féin....
But I also question how well the populist right really emulate Pearse's example. His famous dictum: "Not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well", does not seem to have been taken to heart by this movement, whose notion of Irishness often seems to begin and end with genetics, and who show next to no interest in reviving traditional Irish culture.
He's also fairly hard to pigeon-hole as a conservative, since some of his ideas were almost the opposite-- for instance, he seems to have been a pioneer of "child-centred learning".
For my own part, I very much consider him one of my heroes. I'm not sure that the 1916 Rebellion was morally justified, (although people who loudly decry it are usually the worst sort of self-loathing Irish, filled with cultural cringe-- they rarely seem so harsh on other armed insurrections). But I admire him for his poetry, his dedication to the Irish language, his founding of St. Éanna's, and the depth of his thought.
I think his conflation of Christianity and the cause of Irish nationalism often verged on idolatry, and I strongly disagree with his statement that the grave of Wolfe Tone was holier than the grave of St. Patrick. But there's no doubt that he was a fervent Christian, aside from such lapses.
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Post by servantofthechief on Aug 29, 2019 13:23:15 GMT
But I also question how well the populist right really emulate Pearse's example. His famous dictum: "Not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well", does not seem to have been taken to heart by the populist right, whose notion of Irishness often seems to begin and end with genetics, and who shows next to now interest in reviving traditional Irish culture. I am not sure this is true, because from my own perception the Irish populist right is quite civic nationalist, where Gaelic is usually considered the cultural values more than the genetics. The National Party seems to be somewhere in the middle on this, trumpeting Gaelic traditions and values and culture, (albeit they keep coming to the stumbling block of maintaining a secular state while also recognizing the need for recognition of our Christian heritage, trying to go two ways on the legacy of the Church in Ireland over the last century) but recognizing the realities of the ethnic situation which puts them at odds with virtually all of the 'last-years-liberalism-is-this-years-conservatism' parties springing up in the wake of the referendums I've criticized elsewhere. That said I think Patrick Pearse's popularity with the dissident right in Ireland (a better catch all term I believe) is because out of all the founders of the Easter Rising, he was the most explicitly religious, (not to say the others weren't), the most traditionalist, and the least celebrated by the powers that be in the modern Irish establishment because he's the hardest to twist in propaganda to support their current shenanigans. His quote 'Free and Gaelic' can be seen as a clear condemnation of the modern establishment, which has made Ireland neither free nor Gaelic, indeed, it has done little to nothing since the Rising to make it more Gaelic at all, it is only recently they have decided to encourage learning of Irish through economic incentives, something that should have been done nearly a hundred years ago! |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 29, 2019 13:32:58 GMT
But I also question how well the populist right really emulate Pearse's example. His famous dictum: "Not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well", does not seem to have been taken to heart by the populist right, whose notion of Irishness often seems to begin and end with genetics, and who shows next to now interest in reviving traditional Irish culture. I am not sure this is true, because from my own perception the Irish populist right is quite civic nationalist, where Gaelic is usually considered the cultural values more than the genetics. The National Party seems to be somewhere in the middle on this, trumpeting Gaelic traditions and values and culture, (albeit they keep coming to the stumbling block of maintaining a secular state while also recognizing the need for recognition of our Christian heritage, trying to go two ways on the legacy of the Church in Ireland over the last century) but recognizing the realities of the ethnic situation which puts them at odds with virtually all of the 'last-years-liberalism-is-this-years-conservatism' parties springing up in the wake of the referendums I've criticized elsewhere. That said I think Patrick Pearse's popularity with the dissident right in Ireland (a better catch all term I believe) is because out of all the founders of the Easter Rising, he was the most explicitly religious, (not to say the others weren't), the most traditionalist, and the least celebrated by the powers that be in the modern Irish establishment because he's the hardest to twist in propaganda to support their current shenanigans. His quote 'Free and Gaelic' can be seen as a clear condemnation of the modern establishment, which has made Ireland neither free nor Gaelic, indeed, it has done little to nothing since the Rising to make it more Gaelic at all, it is only recently they have decided to encourage learning of Irish through economic incentives, something that should have been done nearly a hundred years ago! Apparently more exemptions are being given now from learning Irish in schools. How long, I wonder, before compulsory Irish is seen as discriminatory against the "New Irish"? |
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Post by kj on Aug 29, 2019 20:16:43 GMT
I only started "getting into" Pearse a few years ago when I visited Connemara for the first time, and brought along my copy of the Dudley-Edwards biography. I also visited the cottage there and found the whole experience incredibly moving. At the risk of hyperbole, I do - at the moment anyway - regard him as my favourite figure in Irish history.
It is a remarkable phenomenon how he has been airbrushed out of Irish contemporary culture and media. I suppose his ideas today seem almost hysterically atavistic and 'reactionary'. I sincerely believe he would be horrified by the country today.
When I was in Galway I watched this RTE documentary from a few years back. In spite of its title I think it excellent, even if most of the pundits are anti-Pearse!
By the way, there is also a cult of Pearse amongst very right-wing, borderline fascists in the Normandy and Breton independence movements. One or two of them have even written biographies of him.
Also by the bye, I was introduced to Ruth Dudley-Edwards a couple of weeks ago in company. I mentioned the saga about the Young FGer who attended the right-wing conference in America and she was intrigued, as she's gone somewhat right in her political opinions.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 30, 2019 9:39:02 GMT
I only started "getting into" Pearse a few years ago when I visited Connemara for the first time, and brought along my copy of the Dudley-Edwards biography. I also visited the cottage there and found the whole experience incredibly moving. At the risk of hyperbole, I do - at the moment anyway - regard him as my favourite figure in Irish history. It is a remarkable phenomenon how he has been airbrushed out of Irish contemporary culture and media. I suppose his ideas today seem almost hysterically atavistic and 'reactionary'. I sincerely believe he would be horrified by the country today. When I was in Galway I watched this RTE documentary from a few years back. In spite of its title I think it excellent, even if most of the pundits are anti-Pearse!
By the way, there is also a cult of Pearse amongst very right-wing, borderline fascists in the Normandy and Breton independence movements. One or two of them have even written biographies of him. Also by the bye, I was introduced to Ruth Dudley-Edwards a couple of weeks ago in company. I mentioned the saga about the Young FGer who attended the right-wing conference in America and she was intrigued, as she's gone somewhat right in her political opinions.
Ruth Dudley-Edwards seems part of a cohort with Kevin Myers and other figures who positioned themselves against Catholic, nationalist orthodoxies, and now find they have been replaced by something they like even less. I was recently pondering Pearse's haunting poem "The Wayfarer", written just before his execution. I wonder if it displays an awareness that the agrarian, traditional Ireland he loved would pass away soon, with or without Irish independence. I often wonder what the Irish nationalists of the past envisaged for Ireland's long-term future. Could they have envisaged the internet, mass media, mass immigration, etc.? Or did they imagine Ireland remaining much as it was indefinitely? This is why I now consider myself a cultural nationalist, rather than a political nationalist. It's impossible to know how technology and society will evolve-- putting so much commitment and hope and sacrifice into the territorial nation state seems like a huge gamble. But a CULTURE seems much more resilient, as the example of the Jewish people shows. (Admittedly, Jewishness is religious as well as cultural.) The beauty of the world hath made me sad, This beauty that will pass; Sometimes my heart hath shaken with great joy To see a leaping squirrel in a tree, Or a red lady-bird upon a stalk, Or little rabbits in a field at evening, Lit by a slanting sun, Or some green hill where shadows drifted by Some quiet hill where mountainy man hath sown And soon would reap; near to the gate of Heaven; Or children with bare feet upon the sands Of some ebbed sea, or playing on the streets Of little towns in Connacht, Things young and happy. And then my heart hath told me: These will pass, Will pass and change, will die and be no more, Things bright and green, things young and happy; And I have gone upon my way Sorrowful. |
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Post by cato on Aug 30, 2019 9:59:21 GMT
I haven't read Ruth Dudley Edwards book in a while but it is much more than a simple revisionist hatchet job. Pearse is presented as a complex individual. Nowadays most people wouldn't see that as controversial.
Pearse was a home ruler who was reluctantly converted to violence through frustration when it looked like constitutional politics were being twarted by an Imperial establishment. He never killed anyone, probably never fired a shot in anger and surrendered to save the lives of Dublin citizens caught in cross fire. Talking about cleansing violence is one thing. Seeing a city demolished by shell fire and witnessing bloodshed at close quarters is another.
He was a remarkably humane even sentimental man which comes across in his poetry and stories. I admire the kindly way he treated children in his care , in an age were brutal methods were common and justified by many who should have known better. Indeed he comes across as being strangely innocent and childlike. He had a great love of English literature as well as his love of all things Gaelic.
I have come across some essays from the 1970s were his comparisons with Ireland and the suffering Christ are denounced as blasphemous , ironically by Jesuit priests! I doubt if Pearse was being literal when he made those over the top remarks , not uncommon in pre 1914 political writings . Every catholic knows Christ died for all mankind , the good and the bad. The Irish and the English.
St Endas in Rathfarnam is a wonderful place were you can sense Pearse the teacher and idealist. I was saddened to see some beautiful Pearse brothers church altar pieces that had been thrown out of a Donegal church after Vatican II in one of the museum displays. At least they weren't dumped.
I suppose ultimately Pearse is someone who put his money were his mouth was and laid his own life down for his people. That is the stuff of greatness.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 31, 2019 8:55:03 GMT
When the Clancy Brothers recorded THE FOGGY DEW (sung solo by Patrick) on their 1950s RISING OF THE MOON the verse mentioning him was included "...had they died by Pearse's side...". It wasn't in the later Chieftans/O'Connor recording, probably due more to mention of DeValera in the same couplet. Eamon definately wasn't lionised in the Michael Collins film associated with the recording. The Wolfe Tones recorded PADRAIC PEARSE (in the 70s I'm guessing ?) But,even then,he seemed neglected enough for them to sing "we gave him no fitting tribute,when Ireland's a nation that can be"
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Post by cato on Aug 31, 2019 12:01:45 GMT
I wonder did the 1966 celebrations and the idealised official view of Pearse put the artistic rebellious types off Pearse?
Being part of the establishment can (but not always) be the kiss of death for your street credibility.
In contrast James Connolly a radical leftist has always been chic among Irish right minded (ie left) types. Connolly was a real blood thirsty militarist who was itching to unleash his tiny militia on the Imperial crown forces , so much that the IRB had to rein him in , by co-opting him in their plans for a rising last he spoil their plan with a pre-emptive socialist coup of his own.
Michael Collins has always had a relatively popular cult too , more so than Pearse. RTE did show a drama on Pearse in 2016 that wasn't bad but there has never been a movie on him like Neil Jordan's epic biopic Michael Collins.
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Post by kj on Sept 10, 2020 19:48:47 GMT
A propos of nothing really, but I just felt like expressing somewhere that Pearse has been very much in my mind over the past couple weeks for whatever reason. I suppose every day seems to take Ireland a step away from his vision. Nevertheless, I have had lately the very strong intuition that it is Pearse's vision that post-independence Ireland must be judged by. Strong maybe, but that's my mood. By the way, for anyone who hasn't seen it, the magnificent TG4 docudrama Seachtar na Casca is available again on TG4 Player. I can't recommend it enough. The Pearse episode is excellent and I feel the actor really captures his spirit. Seachtar na Casca |
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Post by cato on Jun 22, 2021 16:33:53 GMT
Pearse is one of the many topics discussed by Fr Brendan Kilcoyne and John Waters on YouTube last week. It's part of Fr Kilcoyne's Immaculata series. It's very long so I watched it on 4 occasions.
Its a great intelligent stimulating and hopefulled and at times humorous conversation. It cheered me up immensely.
Waters got into hot water over another video clip when he and Gemma O Doherty made less than kind remarks about Leo Varadkar and bus drivers. I haven't seen that whole video but careless talk can cause us all to say stupid things. Too much immersion in the current insanity can cause us to lose balance and Christian charity.
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Post by assisi on Jun 22, 2021 21:20:39 GMT
Pearse is one of the many topics discussed by Fr Brendan Kilcoyne and John Waters on YouTube last week. It's part of Fr Kilcoyne's Immaculata series. It's very long so I watched it on 4 occasions. Its a great intelligent stimulating and hopefulled and at times humorous conversation. It cheered me up immensely. Waters got into hot water over another video clip when he and Gemma O Doherty made less than kind remarks about Leo Varadkar and bus drivers. I haven't seen that whole video but careless talk can cause us all to say stupid things. Too much immersion in the current insanity can cause us to lose balance and Christian charity. I watched that video and found it long but well worth it. Even in rock music, much of it deriving from the Irish famine emigrants laments and Black slave experiences, John Waters saw something of the supernatural. He had a good word for David Bowie who turned himself around from the mess he was in during 1970s to a mature man in the years before his death. I remember reading that Bowie's last internet search was for 'God' and that his last album was very dark but seemed to be drenched in Christ like imagery even if it was imagery that I found uncomfortable - he obviously didn't make the final complete conversion. John Waters says in the interview that during a recent Latin Mass he broke down and cried as the Mass sparked in him a return to the Latin Mass of his childhood, a sort of homecoming for him. He said that the Latin Mass would be one of the things he would like to see more of in a renewed Catholic Church. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 22, 2021 23:15:15 GMT
Pearse is one of the many topics discussed by Fr Brendan Kilcoyne and John Waters on YouTube last week. It's part of Fr Kilcoyne's Immaculata series. It's very long so I watched it on 4 occasions. Its a great intelligent stimulating and hopefulled and at times humorous conversation. It cheered me up immensely. Waters got into hot water over another video clip when he and Gemma O Doherty made less than kind remarks about Leo Varadkar and bus drivers. I haven't seen that whole video but careless talk can cause us all to say stupid things. Too much immersion in the current insanity can cause us to lose balance and Christian charity. I watched that video and found it long but well worth it. Even in rock music, much of it deriving from the Irish famine emigrants laments and Black slave experiences, John Waters saw something of the supernatural. He had a good word for David Bowie who turned himself around from the mess he was in during 1970s to a mature man in the years before his death. I remember reading that Bowie's last internet search was for 'God' and that his last album was very dark but seemed to be drenched in Christ like imagery even if it was imagery that I found uncomfortable - he obviously didn't make the final complete conversion. John Waters says in the interview that during a recent Latin Mass he broke down and cried as the Mass sparked in him a return to the Latin Mass of his childhood, a sort of homecoming for him. He said that the Latin Mass would be one of the things he would like to see more of in a renewed Catholic Church. David Bowie seems to have been someone fascinated with religion during his whole life. It says a lot about our era that saying the Lord's Prayer on stage at the tribute to Freddie Mercury may have been his most transgressive act in a life filled with them. |
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Post by cato on Jun 23, 2021 11:56:33 GMT
[John Waters says in the interview that during a recent Latin Mass he broke down and cried as the Mass sparked in him a return to the Latin Mass of his childhood, a sort of homecoming for him. He said that the Latin Mass would be one of the things he would like to see more of in a renewed Catholic Church.
[/quote]
Was very struck by that too Assisi. The blessing of the congregation at the start of high mass is a beautiful ritual and I have been hit once or twice. Its like a divine wake up call or spiritual cold water face wash.
Of course its also an option in the ordinary vernacular Mass in place of the usual penitential rite or creed(I forget which) It's usually done around Easter but could be done more often.
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Post by assisi on Jun 23, 2021 21:21:43 GMT
[John Waters says in the interview that during a recent Latin Mass he broke down and cried as the Mass sparked in him a return to the Latin Mass of his childhood, a sort of homecoming for him. He said that the Latin Mass would be one of the things he would like to see more of in a renewed Catholic Church. Was very struck by that too Assisi. The blessing of the congregation at the start of high mass is a beautiful ritual and I have been hit once or twice. Its like a divine wake up call or spiritual cold water face wash. Of course its also an option in the ordinary vernacular Mass in place of the usual penitential rite or creed(I forget which) It's usually done around Easter but could be done more often.[/quote] The Church has always had its critics regarding what many saw as the luxuries of incense, choirs, iconography and ritual of the Latin Mass. At one time in my younger days I would have dismissed it too as being slightly decadent. But a reverential beauty, I have found, has the power to move and inspire. Why not use some of the beauty of God's created world to enhance the sanctity of the Mass? It certainly doesn't move the focus way from holiness but actually enhances it for me. The naysayers, liberals and modernists very often emphasise the functional over the beautiful. We end up for example, with high rise flats in the 1960s which were to prove dismal for the residents but which allowed architects to experiment with their theories; needless to say the architects lived elsewhere. As I keep saying, modernists want the world to be a projection of their own internal turmoil and their own lack of belief and the emptiness of their souls. Beauty created around God troubles them because of its ability to take people to a higher realm, something that their materialistic worldview finds unsettling. |
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Post by assisi on Jun 23, 2021 21:28:43 GMT
I watched that video and found it long but well worth it. Even in rock music, much of it deriving from the Irish famine emigrants laments and Black slave experiences, John Waters saw something of the supernatural. He had a good word for David Bowie who turned himself around from the mess he was in during 1970s to a mature man in the years before his death. I remember reading that Bowie's last internet search was for 'God' and that his last album was very dark but seemed to be drenched in Christ like imagery even if it was imagery that I found uncomfortable - he obviously didn't make the final complete conversion. John Waters says in the interview that during a recent Latin Mass he broke down and cried as the Mass sparked in him a return to the Latin Mass of his childhood, a sort of homecoming for him. He said that the Latin Mass would be one of the things he would like to see more of in a renewed Catholic Church. David Bowie seems to have been someone fascinated with religion during his whole life. It says a lot about our era that saying the Lord's Prayer on stage at the tribute to Freddie Mercury may have been his most transgressive act in a life filled with them. As a bit of an aside, I read an article in Dr E Michael Jones magazine some time ago that asserts that Bohemian Rhapsody was Freddie Mercury writing about his move from relative innocence to the adoption of the gay culture through a particular relationship or event. A reading of the lyrics could indeed support that theory but I don't think it has ever been explicitly stated by Mercury or anyone else. |
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