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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 16, 2019 12:12:30 GMT
What do people think of the argument that immigrants should "integrate" into their host society? I so often hear this argument made, often by the right.
These are my problems with the argument that immigrants should integrate into Irish society, and the assumption that such integration would render large-scale immigration ubobjectionable:
1) I never know whether it means the immigrants assimilating into Irish culture, or a melding of Irish culture and immigrants' cultures. One problem with the latter approach is that there are so many different nationalities present in Ireland, it's hard to see how you could have any meaningful merging of them. It seems most likely to me that we would simply have the lowest common denominator-- Anglo-American pop culture, consumer culture, and liberal secularism. The tincture of traditional Irish culture we've had left would, most likely, fade away-- except for the GAA, perhaps.
2) A point related to the first point. Do we really have an Irish culture or society? I'm not so sure we do. We differ in some trivial, residual regards from Anglo-American culture, but we never really managed to revive an indigenous Irish culture. We had decades to do so after independence, and we never really made a serious effort. So far as that goes, the blame is on us. But it seems to me that the effort becomes almost impossible if the native Irish are not an overwhelming majority in Ireland.
3) Is it really fair to ask immigrants to "integrate" into the host culture? A person's heritage is a very precious thing. Insofar as some immigration is inevitable, I would much rather accept immigrants as ethnic minorities who are allowed (indeed, encouraged) to preserve their own distinctiveness, while remembering always that the host culture should remain hegemonic and unapologetically so.
If "integration" simply means obeying the law and paying taxes, well, isn't that what every resident of every country is expected to do anyway?
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Post by cato on Dec 16, 2019 17:47:27 GMT
What do people think of the argument that immigrants should "integrate" into their host society? I so often hear this argument made, often by the right. These are my problems with the argument that immigrants should integrate into Irish society, and the assumption that such integration would render large-scale immigration ubobjectionable: 1) I never know whether it means the immigrants assimilating into Irish culture, or a melding of Irish culture and immigrants' cultures. One problem with the latter approach is that there are so many different nationalities present in Ireland, it's hard to see how you could have any meaningful merging of them. It seems most likely to me that we would simply have the lowest common denominator-- Anglo-American pop culture, consumer culture, and liberal secularism. The tincture of traditional Irish culture we've had left would, most likely, fade away-- except for the GAA, perhaps. 2) A point related to the first point. Do we really have an Irish culture or society? I'm not so sure we do. We differ in some trivial, residual regards from Anglo-American culture, but we never really managed to revive an indigenous Irish culture. We had decades to do so after independence, and we never really made a serious effort. So far as that goes, the blame is on us. But it seems to me that the effort becomes almost impossible if the native Irish are not an overwhelming majority in Ireland. 3) Is it really fair to ask immigrants to "integrate" into the host culture? A person's heritage is a very precious thing. Insofar as some immigration is inevitable, I would much rather accept immigrants as ethnic minorities who are allowed (indeed, encouraged) to preserve their own distinctiveness, while remembering always that the host culture should remain hegemonic and unapologetically so. If "integration" simply means obeying the law and paying taxes, well, isn't that what every resident of every country is expected to do anyway? I agree strongly with point 2) above. If you or I came to Ireland and wanted to integrate how would you do it ? If you took up Irish classes , joined the GAA, started to drink Guinness, you would merely run the risk of looking silly and being somehow ashamed of your own background. Irish society really believes in very little that is distinctive anymore. Perhaps though we should spell out religious inspired violence is an absolute no no. If you choose to join a war in your former country then forget your rights as an Irish citizen. Learn enough English to communicate. Integration makes few demands but it should make some. As a people we have a poor sense of civic responsibility unlike say the Swiss or the Dutch. We are very keen on rights , "free" goodies from the government and tolerate state sponsered financial corruption that beggered us a decade ago and may do so again. We do have a major problem with unresourced and unplanned mass immigration which our political class has disgracefully dodged to date. That is not the fault of newcomers to this country. Other countries like the USA, New Zealand Australia and the UK which have mass immigration seem to have a stronger culture that works successfully to integrate most newcomers quite quickly. Or perhaps I don't have enough confidence in Ireland ? Maybe people will turn into good responsible members of our society in a relatively painless way. |
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Post by cato on Dec 16, 2019 17:55:36 GMT
Given our long history of emigration I wonder should an Irish state ideally have a right of return for members of the Irish Diaspora like the Israeli government has for Jews?
Unlike other countries we don't have an Imperial guilt obligation to take the modern descendents of those colonised, but perhaps we have a debt of honour to those forced to leave our shores.
In the past this would have been seen as ruinously expensive fantasy but targeting descendents of those who left would be just and would attract people presumably with sympathies and some understanding of Ireland. It would also annoy the Social justice types who would find it hard to denounce it as racist. But they would.
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Post by Tomas on Dec 16, 2019 20:14:53 GMT
Given our long history of emigration I wonder should an Irish state ideally have a right of return for members of the Irish Diaspora like the Israeli government has for Jews? Unlike other countries we don't have an Imperial guilt obligation to take the modern descendents of those colonised, but perhaps we have a debt of honour to those forced to leave our shores. In the past this would have been seen as ruinously expensive fantasy but targeting descendents of those who left would be just and would attract people presumably with sympathies and some understanding of Ireland. It would also annoy the Social justice types who would find it hard to denounce it as racist. But they would. i Utopian now but who knows what happens in the world say 2040 or 2050. Return of those many Irish from the US or Australia could be some boost if a cultural sea change would emerge against all likeliness. |
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Post by Tomas on Dec 16, 2019 20:21:24 GMT
What do people think of the argument that immigrants should "integrate" into their host society? I so often hear this argument made, often by the right. These are my problems with the argument that immigrants should integrate into Irish society, and the assumption that such integration would render large-scale immigration ubobjectionable: 1) I never know whether it means the immigrants assimilating into Irish culture, or a melding of Irish culture and immigrants' cultures. One problem with the latter approach is that there are so many different nationalities present in Ireland, it's hard to see how you could have any meaningful merging of them. It seems most likely to me that we would simply have the lowest common denominator-- Anglo-American pop culture, consumer culture, and liberal secularism. The tincture of traditional Irish culture we've had left would, most likely, fade away-- except for the GAA, perhaps. 2) A point related to the first point. Do we really have an Irish culture or society? I'm not so sure we do. We differ in some trivial, residual regards from Anglo-American culture, but we never really managed to revive an indigenous Irish culture. We had decades to do so after independence, and we never really made a serious effort. So far as that goes, the blame is on us. But it seems to me that the effort becomes almost impossible if the native Irish are not an overwhelming majority in Ireland. 3) Is it really fair to ask immigrants to "integrate" into the host culture? A person's heritage is a very precious thing. Insofar as some immigration is inevitable, I would much rather accept immigrants as ethnic minorities who are allowed (indeed, encouraged) to preserve their own distinctiveness, while remembering always that the host culture should remain hegemonic and unapologetically so. If "integration" simply means obeying the law and paying taxes, well, isn't that what every resident of every country is expected to do anyway? It has always had a strong tinge of theory, to say the least. From what I could relate nearest to, post-WWII immigration from Finland to Sweden, it is not a popular word among immigrants themselves (and hardly among anybody except the few vague adherents to various social theories…). Only a political word it seems. Nonsensical. |
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Post by Séamus on Dec 19, 2019 12:38:58 GMT
What do people think of the argument that immigrants should "integrate" into their host society?...etc...? I agree strongly with point 2) above. If you or I came to Ireland and wanted to integrate how would you do it ? ...etc...]Other countries like the USA, New Zealand Australia and the UK which have mass immigration seem to have a stronger culture that works successfully to integrate most newcomers quite quickly. Or perhaps I don't have enough confidence in Ireland ? Maybe people will turn into good responsible members of our society in a relatively painless way. Larger populations and areas may absorb the immigrants that bit more,but some may doubt the depth of this integration, whatever their interpretation of the word. A man wrote a letter to a Perth newspaper a while ago telling of a recent experience on a bus when he sat next to a hijabbed lady. She told him that this was against her beliefs and a row follows; he telling her to return to her country;she telling him that Australia would be under sharia law one day... But I have noticed after reading this that most or all hijab-wearing women DO avoid sitting next to an unrelated male on public transport- more politely I might say,either by standing themselves or sitting on the outside section of the seat. Several young people have been charged by the Australian government,accused of planning terrorist acts or joining extreme groups overseas etc- the interesting part is that most of them have never experienced life in the Middle East themselves. Usually their parents had fled from predominantly Islamic nations and are content with practising Islam without being a menace to others. The more-patriotic-next-generation is not a new or entirely muslim monkey-puzzle. Australia had an unusual character named Albert Dryer (+1963)who,despite never visiting Ireland and having half-German background,devoted much of his life to the Republican cause and actually felt much disappointment in a newer wave of Irish immigrants and their lack of interest in nationalism or Northern Ireland. Psychologists could of course find many reasons for this;living in Australia during WWI when both his ethnicities were unpopular with establishment;being imprisoned during this period. An old photo of young Dryer in 1916 shows him posing outside a tent at "the Irish Republican Brotherhood training camp in the Blue Mountains (New South Wales)". Having said that there was certainly no terror attacks towards the ("accidental"- his own words) land of his birth and he lived a civil enough life to have partially organised the DeValera visit to Australia in the 1940s |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 19, 2019 12:49:47 GMT
I agree strongly with point 2) above. If you or I came to Ireland and wanted to integrate how would you do it ? ...etc...]Other countries like the USA, New Zealand Australia and the UK which have mass immigration seem to have a stronger culture that works successfully to integrate most newcomers quite quickly. Or perhaps I don't have enough confidence in Ireland ? Maybe people will turn into good responsible members of our society in a relatively painless way. Larger populations and areas may absorb the immigrants that bit more,but some may doubt the depth of this integration, whatever their interpretation of the word. A man wrote a letter to a Perth newspaper a while ago telling of a recent experience on a bus when he sat next to a hijabbed lady. She told him that this was against her beliefs and a row follows; he telling her to return to her country;she telling him that Australia would be under sharia law one day... But I have noticed after reading this that most or all hijab-wearing women DO avoid sitting next to an unrelated male on public transport- more politely I might say,either by standing themselves or sitting on the outside section of the seat. Several young people have been charged by the Australian government,accused of planning terrorist acts or joining extreme groups overseas etc- the interesting part is that most of them have never experienced life in the Middle East themselves. Usually their parents had fled from predominantly Islamic nations and are content with practising Islam without being a menace to others. The more-patriotic-next-generation is not a new or entirely muslim monkey-puzzle. Australia had an unusual character named Albert Dryer (+1963)who,despite never visiting Ireland and having half-German background,devoted much of his life to the Republican cause and actually felt much disappointment in a newer wave of Irish immigrants and their lack of interest in nationalism or Northern Ireland. Psychologists could of course find many reasons for this;living in Australia during WWI when both his ethnicities were unpopular with establishment;being imprisoned during this period. An old photo of young Dryer in 1916 shows him posing outside a tent at "the Irish Republican Brotherhood training camp in the Blue Mountains (New South Wales)". Having said that there was certainly no terror attacks towards the ("accidental"- his own words) land of his birth and he lived a civil enough life to have partially organised the DeValera visit to Australia in the 1940s I had a similar experience very recently on a bus, when an Irish guy (who didn't seem particularly educated or articulate or pleasant) was filming a video of everyone on the bus, which he declared he was going to make into a YouTube video, demonstrating the fact that the Irish are now a minority in Dublin. He had an exchange with a gent sitting just across from him (as I was directly in front of both, I couldn't see this second man), who stated that he had every right to be here as he paid his taxes. Obviously, the Irish guy was behaving like a jackass, but I wasn't too impressed by the other guy's argument. Is money everything? This is one of only a handful of occasions when I've seen any behaviour that could remotely be termed racist on public transport, despite annual campaigns against such behaviour. Once again, I think the social engineers are creating the very thing they warn against. Or perhaps they simply anticipated it. |
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Post by cato on Dec 19, 2019 19:00:35 GMT
This is one of only a handful of occasions when I've seen any behaviour that could remotely be termed racist on public transport, despite annual campaigns against such behaviour. Once again, I think the social engineers are creating the very thing they warn against. Or perhaps they simply anticipated it.
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I have noticed in private conversations ordinary people getting more and more fed up with the bossy self righteous lecturing from official Ireland on the issue of race. I do think people will start reacting against being labelled racist on the slightest pretext. Some of that reaction will probably be racist.
I have encountered 2 examples of racism in the last year. Both were directed at Asians . One was a bus driver and the other a passenger. Drink was taken as they say and it was the last bus home.
I suspect drink was the main problem and an Irish person would have received the same abuse had they been in the firing line instead. It is cringing to hear someone humiliate another human being in public in this way.
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