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Post by cato on Jun 4, 2020 19:16:04 GMT
At another thread the issue of conservatism and religious faith came up. The links between a conservative sensibility and a 2000 year historical religion which values tradition, the human bonds of family and friendship, learning , art , culture , morality etc. seem obvious enough
Many conservatives are religious believers. I find it interesting that many professional Catholics ie clergy are not conservative. The Irish and Universal Church is broadly leftist nowadays especially in its official manifestations and programmes . Conservative clergy are in a minority contrary to popular opinion but this does appear to have been changing in recent times.
The late Rodger Scruton was unable to profess an orthodox Christian faith but seemed a sincere searcher. He wrote on Christianity sympathetically , in his case the National Anglican Church. Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson are another two prominent thinkers sympathetic to faith who do not believe in God. Both adopt a broad right wing position particularly in the wider cultural wars. Both seem to be genuinely open to belief but cannot make that jump of faith.
The popular Classical historian Tom Holland is friendly to the legacy of Christianity and is an atheist . I am unsure whether he is conservative.
In politics the Tory John Major was the first explicit atheist to hold the prime minister's role. Andrew Roberts in his biography of Churchill points out he never referred to Jesus Christ in over 60 years of public speaking. He subscribed to a vague Anglican religiosity ( a flying butress supporting the church from outside) but made frequent references to God and providence in his wartime speeches as prime minister.
In Ireland every Taoiseach and President to date has been formally Christian but it would be difficult to assess whether any have been remotely conservative since John Bruton and Patrick Hilary.
I think this came up for discussion before but the topic of the broader connection between Christians and politics is an interesting one. If you only follow formal teaching and preaching it would appear that the modern church is a cold house for the conservative soul.
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Post by assisi on Jun 5, 2020 15:21:43 GMT
At another thread the issue of conservatism and religious faith came up. The links between a conservative sensibility and a 2000 year historical religion which values tradition, the human bonds of family and friendship, learning , art , culture , morality etc. seem obvious enough Many conservatives are religious believers. I find it interesting that many professional Catholics ie clergy are not conservative. The Irish and Universal Church is broadly leftist nowadays especially in its official manifestations and programmes . Conservative clergy are in a minority contrary to popular opinion but this does appear to have been changing in recent times. The late Rodger Scruton was unable to profess an orthodox Christian faith but seemed a sincere searcher. He wrote on Christianity sympathetically , in his case the National Anglican Church. Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson are another two prominent thinkers sympathetic to faith who do not believe in God. Both adopt a broad right wing position particularly in the wider cultural wars. Both seem to be genuinely open to belief but cannot make that jump of faith. The popular Classical historian Tom Holland is friendly to the legacy of Christianity and is an atheist . I am unsure whether he is conservative. In politics the Tory John Major was the first explicit atheist to hold the prime minister's role. Andrew Roberts in his biography of Churchill points out he never referred to Jesus Christ in over 60 years of public speaking. He subscribed to a vague Anglican religiosity ( a flying butress supporting the church from outside) but made frequent references to God and providence in his wartime speeches as prime minister. In Ireland every Taoiseach and President to date has been formally Christian but it would be difficult to assess whether any have been remotely conservative since John Bruton and Patrick Hilary. I think this came up for discussion before but the topic of the broader connection between Christians and politics is an interesting one. If you only follow formal teaching and preaching it would appear that the modern church is a cold house for the conservative soul. I think it would be a good thing to present people with a set of the possible alternative societies that they may end up in if the continued liberal experiment persists. It could be an eye opener for people who have not thought this through. We could have: 1) A communist/marxist authoritarian state. Something ranging from a North Korea to the softer communism of China. 2) A 'strongman' authoritarian state where a charismatic character (right wing or left wing) steps into power should society start to break down, something like Napoleon after the French Revolution fell apart 3) A theocratic state or semi-theocratic state. In this day and age that would be most likely to be Muslim 4) Some kind of globalist, technocratic state or empire, like an EU empire. This type I include because of the dizzying speed of technology and the potent mix of capitalism/liberalism that is driving it. 5) A state based on, and friendly to, Christian principles but not a theocracy 6) Anarchy or societal breakdown Which would a Western agnostic or atheist choose? Most sensible people would steer well away from the first three and number 6. To a large extent most are living in the dying embers of number 5 , but have been lucky enough to have reaped the relative benefits of that type of society - security, health provision, freedom of movement and freedom of speech, material comfort. Number 4 may be attractive but represents a step into the unknown. No fixed morality, technological and medicinal solutions to all metaphysical questions and longings, the isolated individual with multiple consumer choices, central powers dictating behaviour at every level of life. Surely most non-believers, conservative or not, would be better off in 5 if they thought through the possible alternatives. It is noteworthy that migrants are all pushing to be in countries that have been Christian. They are not going to Iran, Pakistan, China, N.Korea or Brazil. Not even to Russia in any great numbers. Yet it looks like the liberal/progressive experiment desires the extinction of the Christian based countries. It looks like a form of suicide by these people, unfortunately taking the rest of us down with them. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 6, 2020 22:46:59 GMT
I was a conservative before I was a believer. In some ways my conversion made me less conservative. For instance, I had rejected the very concept of human rights, from disgust at the way it was abused, and a sense that such abstractions destroyed the organic fabric of society. When I became a Catholic I had to accept that human rights were real and essential.
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Post by assisi on Jun 8, 2020 17:52:36 GMT
I was a conservative before I was a believer. In some ways my conversion made me less conservative. For instance, I had rejected the very concept of human rights, from disgust at the way it was abused, and a sense that such abstractions destroyed the organic fabric of society. When I became a Catholic I had to accept that human rights were real and essential. I'm almost going in the opposite direction. I am beginning to dislike the idea of rights since the concept has been done to death, and people claim rights for any and everything, many do this to get an unfair advantage over others. Where is the definitive repository of rights? The American constitution? The United Nations? I haven't studied the history of how rights have developed over the years, either in secular or Catholic literature so I'm just giving an initial reaction. I mean I see and hear people talking about the 'right to work'. No government in this world can guarantee full employment for all. Whether it is due to recessions, war, viruses, natural disasters, it doesn't really matter, no-one can guarantee there will always be enough jobs available. Also what is the use of rights if they are malleable depending on the political zeitgeist. Article 3 of the UN constitution reads 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.' Well in some circumstances that has been legally overthrown. Perhaps it would be better to have a small number of basic rights, then a number of 'expectations' and then laws. |
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Post by dindsenchas on Jun 9, 2020 7:21:27 GMT
I was raised to essentially be a lapsed Catholic. My parents could not answer basic questions about the importance or value of Catholic Christianity or the church, and the more I questioned as I grew up, the less we went to church or prayed or studied the Bible. For people like myself who became atheists at a very young age, the experience of discovering that Santa Claus wasn't real is an apt emotional metaphor.
Needless to say, my family identified with liberal progressive politics.
My interest in religion was reawakened through studying evolution and discovering the New Atheist movement. The abuses of the Catholic church were having their moment in the public eye in Ireland as I grew up, encouraging a furious reaction to religion. I read Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett. I consumed their YouTube debates on repeat.
During this time, I became hugely concerned about global warming, the possibility of nuclear war, and corruption at the highest levels of state. I couldn't fathom why other people didn't feel as panicked about our situation as I did.
I debated Christians online as a time-consuming hobby. I read the Bible. I became concerned about the spread of Islam as an anti-enlightenment theocratic reaction. I saw the influence of dogma on science through evolution being attacked by creationists.
As I went to university I discovered that moral relativism was in vogue. Criticism of Islam was racist. Evolutionary thinking only applies to non-human animals. Women are identical to yet often better than men. All races are identical but have to be treated differently based on their history of colonisation and slavery. Communism was worth trying again despite its history. The USA was the only serious geopolitical problem. I felt totally isolated from the general culture of progressivism, because to me it seemed totally anti-enlightenment.
I spent a lot of time with Christians, but they had no answers, just faith which was inaccessible to me. I spent a lot of time with Buddhists, but I felt myself just becoming more neurotic and worried the more I meditated. I tried atheist groups, but they couldn't agree on leadership and couldn't stop talking about Catholics.
So I want to see how conservatism could be secular. Jordan Peterson's book, Maps of Meaning, allows for multi-faith agreement that doesn't privilege Christian mythology. Roger Scruton focuses on aesthetics, and that is something wholly absent from modern art and politics (apologies for the broad brush strokes here).
I want a politics that is anti-radical. I want to see a unified populace focused on protecting ourselves from the biggest risks of collapse and tragedy. I want to protect enlightenment values, the Western canon, and treat the practice and art of science with a reverence it needs. We need to rebuild a sense of community that young people can connect with, a new narrative for our times. We need to make people feel comfortable raising families here again.
I don't see where I fit in right now.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 9, 2020 12:15:30 GMT
I was raised to essentially be a lapsed Catholic. My parents could not answer basic questions about the importance or value of Catholic Christianity or the church, and the more I questioned as I grew up, the less we went to church or prayed or studied the Bible. For people like myself who became atheists at a very young age, the experience of discovering that Santa Claus wasn't real is an apt emotional metaphor. Needless to say, my family identified with liberal progressive politics. My interest in religion was reawakened through studying evolution and discovering the New Atheist movement. The abuses of the Catholic church were having their moment in the public eye in Ireland as I grew up, encouraging a furious reaction to religion. I read Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett. I consumed their YouTube debates on repeat. During this time, I became hugely concerned about global warming, the possibility of nuclear war, and corruption at the highest levels of state. I couldn't fathom why other people didn't feel as panicked about our situation as I did. I debated Christians online as a time-consuming hobby. I read the Bible. I became concerned about the spread of Islam as an anti-enlightenment theocratic reaction. I saw the influence of dogma on science through evolution being attacked by creationists. As I went to university I discovered that moral relativism was in vogue. Criticism of Islam was racist. Evolutionary thinking only applies to non-human animals. Women are identical to yet often better than men. All races are identical but have to be treated differently based on their history of colonisation and slavery. Communism was worth trying again despite its history. The USA was the only serious geopolitical problem. I felt totally isolated from the general culture of progressivism, because to me it seemed totally anti-enlightenment. I spent a lot of time with Christians, but they had no answers, just faith which was inaccessible to me. I spent a lot of time with Buddhists, but I felt myself just becoming more neurotic and worried the more I meditated. I tried atheist groups, but they couldn't agree on leadership and couldn't stop talking about Catholics. So I want to see how conservatism could be secular. Jordan Peterson's book, Maps of Meaning, allows for multi-faith agreement that doesn't privilege Christian mythology. Roger Scruton focuses on aesthetics, and that is something wholly absent from modern art and politics (apologies for the broad brush strokes here). I want a politics that is anti-radical. I want to see a unified populace focused on protecting ourselves from the biggest risks of collapse and tragedy. I want to protect enlightenment values, the Western canon, and treat the practice and art of science with a reverence it needs. We need to rebuild a sense of community that young people can connect with, a new narrative for our times. We need to make people feel comfortable raising families here again. I don't see where I fit in right now. Welcome to the forum, didsenchas, and what a great first post. I do think Enlightenment values have made a huge contribution to human well-being, but I think we have to balance them with man's irrational or non-rational nature for full human flourishing, as you yourself suggest. |
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Post by dindsenchas on Jun 9, 2020 16:34:34 GMT
Welcome to the forum, didsenchas, and what a great first post. I do think Enlightenment values have made a huge contribution to human well-being, but I think we have to balance them with man's irrational or non-rational nature for full human flourishing, as you yourself suggest. Cheers. I accidentally found the forum by looking up Irish Conservative Forum in the hopes of there being such a meeting in real life. Maybe some day. Some day I hope to find the balance for my own irrational or non-rational nature to get a little closer to flourishing. Doesn't seem to come to me from any religions I've experienced so far, sadly. |
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