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Post by Séamus on Jul 13, 2020 5:16:45 GMT
If we learn one thing from the return of 'active mosque status' to Hagia Sophia (and we can learn quite a bit) it certainly exposes the importance that religion still holds in some societies,with Greece talking of sanctions, traditionally Orthodox Christian nations' news services making a point of Pope Francis' silence (before yesterday's Angelus address) reminiscent of the criticism levelled at Elizabeth II following the tragic death of her daughter-in-law, and even the EU voicing concern, spurred on by either their new former-Iron Curtain members, largely orthodox, or the hope that was once held for the diversity envisioned by a secular non-Christian-based member-state. I can recall Turkey's EU membership being enthusiastically spoken of by average people- almost always by people who favoured completely secular society. But one of the many tourists who flocked there at the time was perceptive enough to point out that the rank-and-file were secular on surface level only.... mosques are far from empty in Istanbul. I remember an article years ago, pointing to the political rise of Hinduism in India and Islam elsewhere,as well as the Russian Orthodox Church's position in it's own society as a sign that,not being fooled by the state of some western nations, atheism and secular humanism were the things that are possibly on the wane.
Personally I find it more disconcerting to hear of more recent Catholic (and Protestant for that matter) churches closing and/or becoming mosques/temples/whatever than Hagia Sophia's perhaps inevitable return to a purpose that it admittedly had for many centuries.
And,then,in California on the same weekend we hear of one of St Junipero Serra's original missions burning- coincidentally dedicated to St Gabriel- the Archangel believed by Muslims to have revealed the Koran.
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Post by kj on Jul 13, 2020 9:41:18 GMT
I can't say I have a problem with the Hagia Sophia resuming as a mosque.
Possession is 9/10ths of the law - it's Turkish property on Turkish soil.
I find it cynically amusing to see a lot of Christians up in arms about this - many of the same people moan endlessly about secularisation and here we have a mighty religious building being de-secularised. But I guess it's not on our team, so therefore boo and hiss.
Furthermore, I note a lot of the online moaning is coming from the Orthodox, many of whom seem to revel in sectarian turf wars like this.
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Post by cato on Jul 13, 2020 10:21:26 GMT
Erdogan's petty gesture is just a Turkish example of Croppy lie down and a sop to his base now the economy is sinking. Similarly his neo Imperialist adventuring in Syria and Libya.
Constantinople was the second Rome of Christian Europe for over 1400 years. Its fall was a catastrophe for Christian Europe in the 16th century. I don't share your rather relaxed view KJ. The Ataturk legacy benefited minorities in Turkey particularly Christians. The unraffling of his legacy is a matter of regret.
The limp wristed pathetic Vatican response shows how rotten the current Church has become and why militant Islam despises us. If we had a shred of passion like the fanatics wrecking the USA Christians internationally would be organising a boycott of Turkish tourism.
In case anyone asks I think the Spanish should secularise the former Mosques now used as churches, many of which are stunningly beautiful and turn them into museums. They have plenty of other churches but not enough church goers.
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Post by cato on Jul 13, 2020 10:28:03 GMT
Samuel P Huntingtons 1990s book the Clash of Civilisations has been regularly trashed by globalist advocates but is becoming prophetic.
Well worth a read if you want to understand contemporary geopolitics. He predicted the rise of Ancient powers like India and Turkey in addition to the much predicted Chinese resurgence.
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Post by Séamus on Jul 15, 2020 11:37:32 GMT
Erdogan's petty gesture is just a Turkish example of Croppy lie down and a sop to his base now the economy is sinking. Similarly his neo Imperialist adventuring in Syria and Libya. Constantinople was the second Rome of Christian Europe for over 1400 years. Its fall was a catastrophe for Christian Europe in the 16th century. I don't share your rather relaxed view KJ. The Ataturk legacy benefited minorities in Turkey particularly Christians. The unraffling of his legacy is a matter of regret. The limp wristed pathetic Vatican response shows how rotten the current Church has become and why militant Islam despises us. If we had a shred of passion like the fanatics wrecking the USA Christians internationally would be organising a boycott of Turkish tourism. In case anyone asks I think the Spanish should secularise the former Mosques now used as churches, many of which are stunningly beautiful and turn them into museums. They have plenty of other churches but not enough church goers. 'Mosque vs museum' gives ambivalent feelings of course;one thing we wouldn't have expected to see this year was a group of Jews waving the Christian-oreinted Greek flag in solidarity with Eastern Orthodoxy. The government's claim that little will change in the way of access was rather pathetic- will tourists have the option of shoes? Will women be free of any restrictions? Statements by the likes of UNESCO in mind,to what extent should we form coalition with completely secular forces?....the free speech and transgenderism furore lately hitting the literature world has spawned an intriguing trio in JK Rowling, Salman Rushdie and Margaret Atwood,whose current position on the issue no thinking Christian would object to....on this particular point. |
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Post by Séamus on Sept 11, 2020 7:39:24 GMT
By chance I happened to come across a 'tale of two Jesuits' when looking for information about today's extraordinary form feast of Sts Protus & Hyacinth in a 1930s Catholic encyclopaedia. Turns out that these saints are a good example of martyrology legend being confirmed as having at least partial fact- " in 1845 Fr Marchi discovered the still undisturbed grave of St Hyacinth in the crypt of the above-mentioned catacomb. It was a small square niche in which lay the ashes and pieces of burnt bone wrapped in remains of costly stuffs. Evidently the saint had been burnt...the niche was closed by a marble slab...that confirmed the date of the old martyrology D P III IDUS SEPTEBER YANCINTHUS MARTYR"
Fr John Marchi was indeed a Jesuit,as one might guess, and was apparently famous mostly for his work at the catacomb of St Hermes.
I'm not tying this in with Hagia Sophia to declare our western antiquity as superior or because these saints' remains ended up in the Roman college founded for evangelization, appropriate as that seems,given that another museum/former Christian church has been turned over to a mosque since, while another ancient Turkish church has finally fallen to pieces in recent months through natural causes. But actually because the same page contains an entry about an Irish writer and poet who's new to me,Fr Prout(real name Fr Francis Mahoney SJ),who spent most of his life at odds with his priesthood and Order(but did return to the sacrament before his death). His famous poem dedicated to the bells of St Anne's Shandon- a Protestant church hailed by a 19th century Jesuit?,but maybe a lesson in ecumenical respect to bolster areas of shrinking Christianity is here too- mentions the very building,which he calls St Sophia's despite it's mosque-status at the time.
The cross of secular and religious disciplines in these two men is not an irrelevant reflection to the Hagia controversy either.
Hopefully the examples of today's saints won't require literal imitation in the Middle East in the immediate future.
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