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Post by kj on Aug 18, 2020 12:51:05 GMT
Very interesting article in the IT today. The individualist logic underpinning Staged Irish, now decoupled from the Gaeltacht collective, is unashamedly neo-liberal. To this extent, the current approach represents a takeover by non-native Irish speakers in a post-communal and post-Gaelic context. Gaeltacht identity is now to be culturally repopulated by individuals who have acquired Irish as a secondary language.
Irish is a language of the sympathetic middle class |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 18, 2020 18:09:10 GMT
Very interesting article in the IT today. The individualist logic underpinning Staged Irish, now decoupled from the Gaeltacht collective, is unashamedly neo-liberal. To this extent, the current approach represents a takeover by non-native Irish speakers in a post-communal and post-Gaelic context. Gaeltacht identity is now to be culturally repopulated by individuals who have acquired Irish as a secondary language.
Irish is a language of the sympathetic middle classI think the article is quite inarticulate, as the comments underneath point out. It shouldn't really be a matter of choosing between the Gaeltacht and speakers outside the Gaeltacht. Yes, successive governments have failed to protect the Gaeltacht, and it's crucial that it be protected as long as possible, as it's the reservoir of "actually existing Irish". But I dislike the snobbery towards people learning and using Irish outside the Gaeltacht-- all of whom would value the Gaeltacht. It's not a sign of "individualism", any Irish person who tries to use their native language is almost certainly doing so out of communitarian motives-- even if the community in this case is a more abstract one, the nation. Even if the individualism he refers to is government policy, I don't think his criticism really applies. Because surely the state should both support the Gaeltacht and seek to promote Irish outside the Gaeltacht. What more could we ask for, really? We have compulsory Irish in schools. We have an Irish language TV station and radio station. Ultimately it's the fault of the Irish people that we don't actually use the language. In all honesty I can find some Irish language activists from the Gaeltacht to be quite annoying and snooty. They were born speaking Irish, it's nothing they achieved by their own efforts. I have more admiration for people who choose to learn it and speak it outside the Gaeltacht. |
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Post by kj on Aug 18, 2020 19:37:17 GMT
I agree with your comments, Maolsheachlann. I should have said 'interesting in terms of the contradictions and paradoxes of the language movement.'
The article seems to propose a false dilemma between some sacred Gaeltacht and the 'impure' outsiders. But by that logic, given the prevailing statistical patterns, the Gaeltacht will dissolve and no one outside it will speak the language due to their 'impurity'. So its end result is no Irish speakers at all.
The article is also a bit try-hard in terms of the 'Neo-Liberal' theme. As if those in the Gaeltacht are somehow immune to such trends. In fact, you and others have said that quite often the most gifted Irish speakers have no interest in 'tradition for tradition's sake' and would see themselves as 'progressives'.
But ultimately, as you say, the responsibility is that of the Irish people. Sadly, most of the comments under the story on FB were very negative in regards to the Irish language as a whole.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 18, 2020 20:26:17 GMT
The Irish language seems more important to me all the time. There is nothing comparable to language in the way it pervades all human life and activity. Restoring Irish seems to me the necessary first step to any conservative programme in Ireland. It's a massive first step but it can't be evaded.
Of course, this is from a secular perspective. From my spiritual perspective, Christian evangelism is the most important thing.
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Post by cato on Aug 18, 2020 20:33:19 GMT
Our 19th century cultural revival wasn't a stand alone event but part of a wider European wave of interest in mythology, minority languages , folklore antiquarianism and nationalism. I suspect that we might see a similar revival in interest as a reaction to a bland rootless existence devoted to money and getting more stuff. Like a potential religious revival it will not be native but we will copy a wider cultural movement from abroad.
The language needs to be part of a wider pride in our ancestors - their achievements and resilience. Unfortunately I have found most native speakers to be poor ambassadors , in fact they would have been good employees of the Elizabethan planters! I suppose critics of the church often fault the poor example of believers too.
Great cultural movements can be influenced by the state but as Maolsheachlann points out in a democracy there are limits to what a state can do. I would be interested in how the Israelis resurrected Hebrew as a vernacular but their situation was perhaps unique in that they needed a common language to unite people from all over the world.
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Post by cato on Aug 18, 2020 20:41:43 GMT
I recall a few years ago speculation about the growth of Irish in Dublin and there is a lively Irish speaking community in Belfast. The idea of a shrinking traditional Gaeltacht is only part of the picture.
The relationship of Irish to militant Republicanism and the middle class fondness for primary and secondary education through Irish are not simple revival efforts and are worthy topics of debate.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 24, 2020 14:32:42 GMT
I must admit I have to an extent given up on my efforts to improve my Irish.
It feels so futile. I don't really have anyone to speak it to. Yes, I could seek such people out, but the effort involved seems excessive.
Also, the grammar continues to defeat me. Even my English grammar isn't great. I've never been able to understand grammatical concepts. I'd hoped I might "absorb" grammar spontaneously, from much reading, but that never happened.
In the last four years, especially in the last year, I've made huge exertions to master Irish-- including pretty much all my leisure reading being through Irish. But, realistically, I've come to think that I've improved as far as I can, or at least hit a pretty daunting wall of diminishing returns.
Pearse spoke about "attempting impossible things, deeming them alone worth the toil". It's a very noble ideal, but there are opportunity costs even when it comes to impossible ideals. I've neglected lots of other impossible ideals while concentrating so much on the Gaelic. Trying to revive traditional poetry, for instance.
I still think it's the most important challenge facing the Irish nation. But perhaps this is not the generation to tackle it. Perhaps we need to become more disillusioned with globalization. In the meantime, its continued existence seems fairly secure, even if its revival seems very far away.
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Post by kj on Sept 24, 2020 16:52:55 GMT
Well, Maolsheachlann, I think you are to be commended and admired for your efforts and application.
In one of my periodic fits to improve my Irish I went and bought an Irish grammar a few weeks ago. I have yet to open it. Mea culpa.
I live in England at present so my plunging into it would seem even more futile.
Plus I suspect my enthusiasm has been diluted a little by losing any romantic notions that somehow the language itself might be a bastion against globalism etc when a few people here and elsewhere told me that the Irish speaking world and culture is as leftist as just about anywhere else these days.
Nevertheless, I will most likely always believe that we will only ever be half a nation until Irish is the first language.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 25, 2020 8:24:25 GMT
Well, Maolsheachlann, I think you are to be commended and admired for your efforts and application. In one of my periodic fits to improve my Irish I went and bought an Irish grammar a few weeks ago. I have yet to open it. Mea culpa. I live in England at present so my plunging into it would seem even more futile. Plus I suspect my enthusiasm has been diluted a little by losing any romantic notions that somehow the language itself might be a bastion against globalism etc when a few people here and elsewhere told me that the Irish speaking world and culture is as leftist as just about anywhere else these days. Nevertheless, I will most likely always believe that we will only ever be half a nation until Irish is the first language. In my more optimistic moments (they come once or twice a week), I tell myself that the effort is not wasted and that just having a bit of Irish gives a flavour to our Hiberno-English. |
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Post by Mary on Sept 25, 2020 19:45:11 GMT
I sympathise with how you feel about Irish. I too love the language and think that it is a great loss to us as a nation that we do not speak our own language. I started studying it again in my 40s and am now in my 60s. From time to time, I become frustrated with my progress and leave it aside. But I eventually go back to it. I too feel that I have reached my limits in learning. Of course my excuse now is that it is worth continuing with it to help keep alzeimers at bay!!
I have tried praying the rosary in Irish but I do not feel ‘at home’ with the prayers as I do in English. I am reading the New Testament in Irish at present. I find it a bit difficult. I am no bible scholar or translation expert but comparing it to the New Testament in the English bibles, I find it a good translation.
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eala
Full Member
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Post by eala on Jan 5, 2024 23:02:14 GMT
I sympathise with how you feel about Irish. I too love the language and think that it is a great loss to us as a nation that we do not speak our own language. I started studying it again in my 40s and am now in my 60s. From time to time, I become frustrated with my progress and leave it aside. But I eventually go back to it. I too feel that I have reached my limits in learning. Of course my excuse now is that it is worth continuing with it to help keep alzeimers at bay!! I have tried praying the rosary in Irish but I do not feel ‘at home’ with the prayers as I do in English. I am reading the New Testament in Irish at present. I find it a bit difficult. I am no bible scholar or translation expert but comparing it to the New Testament in the English bibles, I find it a good translation. MUNA bhfuil sé feicithe agat, is féidir Gaeilge Angus cibe teanga atá uait a chuir in aice lena chéile I'm using the Bible App by YouVersion.com. Download it now for your mobile device. app.bible.com/FCPc/ilyCM8GCtC?add_friend_id=121136109 |
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