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Post by rogerbuck on Oct 28, 2020 12:29:59 GMT
The title of this thread is semi-rhetorical.
For I have my own answers, but would certainly welcome others!
But the semi-rhetorical question is this: Why has Ireland never seen anything like this where 300,000 (official estimate) to I million (campaign estimate) turned out to protest same sex "marriage"?
The entire population of Ireland - north and south - is roughly ten percent of France. If there were any correspondence, we might have expected 30,000 to 100,000 then.
Pourquoi pas?
I regret the video is in French, but hope a few of you might just look at it or at least the first 2-3 minutes.
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Post by Tomas on Oct 28, 2020 14:07:54 GMT
The title of this thread is semi-rhetorical. For I have my own answers, but would certainly welcome others! But the semi-rhetorical question is this: Why has Ireland never seen anything like this where 300,000 (official estimate) to I million (campaign estimate) turned out to protest same sex "marriage"? The entire population of Ireland - north and south - is roughly ten percent of France. If there were any correspondence, we might have expected 30,000 to 100,000 then. Pourquoi pas? I regret the video is in French, but hope a few of you might just look at it or at least the first 2-3 minutes. Is the sad truth the youth of Ireland today is simply that uninterested in their forefathers´(ugh! forepersons was the only choice term there?) coherent system of Christ-given truly inspiring human values, i.e. sacramental marriage, piety and prayers, traditions and Tradition? Even if that is a "simple" explanation which to some extent would unlikely as it seems be realistic, even then, I just can´t understand how it can be so. No mere generation gap can manage such losses in itself. It must be down to something in the dictatorship of moral relativism elsewise. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 28, 2020 15:21:17 GMT
The title of this thread is semi-rhetorical. For I have my own answers, but would certainly welcome others! But the semi-rhetorical question is this: Why has Ireland never seen anything like this where 300,000 (official estimate) to I million (campaign estimate) turned out to protest same sex "marriage"? The entire population of Ireland - north and south - is roughly ten percent of France. If there were any correspondence, we might have expected 30,000 to 100,000 then. Pourquoi pas? I regret the video is in French, but hope a few of you might just look at it or at least the first 2-3 minutes. I think to a great extent it was because Irish nationalism and Catholicism emphasised the idea of oppression. There is an engrained instinct in the Irish character, now, to side with anyone who is presented as a victim of oppression. |
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Post by Tomas on Oct 28, 2020 16:12:58 GMT
The title of this thread is semi-rhetorical. For I have my own answers, but would certainly welcome others! But the semi-rhetorical question is this: Why has Ireland never seen anything like this where 300,000 (official estimate) to I million (campaign estimate) turned out to protest same sex "marriage"? The entire population of Ireland - north and south - is roughly ten percent of France. If there were any correspondence, we might have expected 30,000 to 100,000 then. Pourquoi pas? I regret the video is in French, but hope a few of you might just look at it or at least the first 2-3 minutes. I think to a great extent it was because Irish nationalism and Catholicism emphasised the idea of oppression. There is an engrained instinct in the Irish character, now, to side with anyone who is presented as a victim of oppression. You know better of course. It would make sense. The many people presented as victims of oppression, however established they be, are always "winning" in shifts of opinion. |
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Post by assisi on Oct 28, 2020 16:14:15 GMT
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Post by kj on Oct 28, 2020 19:50:51 GMT
Well, I am never likely to be accused of saying anything optimistic on this forum, so.... I've had some recent personal experience with younger Irish people that depress me somewhat. A friend (or maybe ex-friend) of 34 announced to me a while back that he was toying with Dissident Republicanism! Now whatever one may think of that, I was somewhat impressed by the fact that this was not exactly a mainstream option. Then a few days later he messaged me to say he had joined....Sinn Fein. A week or so later I posted on FB with a cynical remark a picture of some SF members doing the BLM knee and salute, a photo that just struck me as plain ridiculous. My friend was not impressed. He messaged me with all the Global liberal, multi-cultural, mass immigration stuff SF trade in. A true believer. How 'sex-workers' and so on were 'fitting allies of Irish Republicanism' etc. We haven't spoken since.... Some of his buddies are similar. Young, idealistic, no time for tradition, consider themselves the vanguard of enlightenment and so on and on. Needless to say, all are fairly well-heeled, set to inherit property and so on. Doesn't fill me with much hope for the future, not that I had any anyway  |
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Post by hilary on Oct 28, 2020 22:24:58 GMT
I think the people who could respond with reasoned, intellectual arguments haven't in any numbers and they have seen how the few who did (David Quinn and others) were treated. It could be very interesting and maybe there will be a change with what's happening this year. People might start to speak out on different things. Women are getting better informed on the trans issue and rse in schools but slowly.
I heard Archbishop Diarmuid Martin the other day saying that there might be repressed homosexuality in people who are homophobic (or have homophobic tendencies!) and I think that's a common fear that would probably put some people off speaking out.
There's a big fear of being seen to be judgmental or hypocritical or interfering in people's lives but Catholics have a duty, don't we, to try and save others from eternal damnation? As I write that I can hear the voices in my head saying "any gay person is as good or much better than you"!
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Post by cato on Oct 29, 2020 9:55:33 GMT
Good point Assisi. The pro life movement was capable of bringing large groups out on big occasions. As some one living in the capital at that time I noticed pro choice marches were usually smaller, more strident and aggressive but also more frequent. The Choice lobby were also busy working on politicians behind the scenes and had the media obediently on side. The spirit of the age was blowing with their sails. I can't recall one liberal or left winger journeying towards a pro life position but legions of pro life politicians abandoned their principles, some overnight. The catholic clergy were hollowed out too. Virtually no priests spoke about this at mass. Many bishops were silent or half hearted in opposing Repeal. Ironically the Church of Ireland , Presbyterians and Evangelicals came out with their most pro life stances ever. Marches are fine but as we saw ,they are not enough to win a referendum. |
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Post by cato on Oct 29, 2020 10:13:24 GMT
]I heard Archbishop Diarmuid Martin the other day saying that there might be repressed homosexuality in people who are homophobic (or have homophobic tendencies!) and I think that's a common fear that would probably put some people off speaking out.
There's a big fear of being seen to be judgmental or hypocritical or interfering in people's lives but Catholics have a duty, don't we, to try and save others from eternal damnation? As I write that I can hear the voices in my head saying "any gay person is as good or much better than you"![/quote]
Hilary when I heard those remarks on RTE radio from Archbishop Martin I presumed they were a Freudian slip and he inadvertently referred to himself. I presume he keeps his publically made vows as a priest and bishop.
RTE and the Irish Slimes have ignored several recent rather unsavoury stories involving Irish Catholic clergy. Similarly gay scandals in the Vatican state are routinely ignored and get virtually zero mainstream media coverage. Pope Francis has a weakness for diversity when it comes to some of his prominent ecclesiastical appointments. A dodgy past is no barrier to high office nowadays.
No doubt our gallant fearless truth seeking media doesn't wish to create a homophobic backlash either .
PS Its well known that people who are afraid of spiders secretly want to be spiders or are sexually aroused by spidery things.
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Post by rogerbuck on Oct 29, 2020 15:44:49 GMT
I think to a great extent it was because Irish nationalism and Catholicism emphasised the idea of oppression. There is an engrained instinct in the Irish character, now, to side with anyone who is presented as a victim of oppression. I think is VERY true and I think there is a lot more to it than just that, which I hope to make clearer with further responses, etc. |
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Post by rogerbuck on Oct 29, 2020 15:54:49 GMT
Assisi, I was aware of this, but it is still good for you to point that out. However, I think there is a vast difference between this and the situation with SS"M", for reasons indicated by: There's a big fear of being seen to be judgmental or hypocritical or interfering in people's lives but Catholics have a duty, don't we, to try and save others from eternal damnation? As I write that I can hear the voices in my head saying "any gay person is as good or much better than you"! For many temperaments, it's a lot scarier to oppose SS"M" Partly this is due to our culture of rationalism (the idolatry of reason). One can more easily wield rational arguments for not killing babies. So I am very glad to see the Irish resistance to abortion. But SS "M" is something else - a different animal. And the comparatively vast French opposition to it is a different animal, too. IMHO, they can't easily be compared. |
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Post by rogerbuck on Oct 29, 2020 16:06:09 GMT
Marches are fine but as we saw ,they are not enough to win a referendum. No - but the French marches have had an enormous, I mean enormous impact on French society. Far more than I can say now. I want to do a whole video on it. Briefly, though, they have signalled to the entire left dominated French culture, that France still has a vast culture of "reactionary homophobe" Catholic Zombies. Zombies, as in back from the dead. This is how the French Left are describing them. We thought they were dead! But, shock, gasp, horror . . . they're not! The marches have helped many Catholics feel safer to be Catholic. And there is a lot more. I have been truly surprised how much these marches have changed France in the years since I lived there (from 2006-2009). In starting this thread, I am not meaning to criticise Ireland vis-a-vis France. I am asking: can we on this island do more to send the same signals that a culture of "reactionary homophobe" Catholic Zombies still exists here, too? Except in Ireland, they were never really dead. So much to say, so little time . . . |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 29, 2020 16:15:06 GMT
However, I think there is a vast difference between this and the situation with SS"M", for reasons indicated by: There's a big fear of being seen to be judgmental or hypocritical or interfering in people's lives but Catholics have a duty, don't we, to try and save others from eternal damnation? As I write that I can hear the voices in my head saying "any gay person is as good or much better than you"! For many temperaments, it's a lot scarier to oppose SS"M" Partly this is due to our culture of rationalism (the idolatry of reason). One can more easily wield rational arguments for not killing babies. I think this is a huge point. I think Irish social conservatives concentrate on the prolife issue so much, not only because it is uniquely important (as it is) but because it can be argued within the logic of liberalism, since abortion is clearly the infliction of harm and coercion on another. I suspect where they are falling down is in equating liberalism with the logic of liberalism-- that Irish liberalism purports to be rational but isn't. Why else would it be so immune to an impeccably liberal argument against abortion? |
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Post by Tomas on Oct 29, 2020 19:49:06 GMT
I think the people who could respond with reasoned, intellectual arguments haven't in any numbers and they have seen how the few who did (David Quinn and others) were treated. It could be very interesting and maybe there will be a change with what's happening this year. People might start to speak out on different things. Women are getting better informed on the trans issue and rse in schools but slowly. I heard Archbishop Diarmuid Martin the other day saying that there might be repressed homosexuality in people who are homophobic (or have homophobic tendencies!) and I think that's a common fear that would probably put some people off speaking out. There's a big fear of being seen to be judgmental or hypocritical or interfering in people's lives but Catholics have a duty, don't we, to try and save others from eternal damnation? As I write that I can hear the voices in my head saying "any gay person is as good or much better than you"! First part is good news. If Ireland has so many "normal" opponents to the compulsory opinon rags as least the internet voices indicates, Conservatives of various kind, then it will only be a matter of time before winds of change begin to breeze finely. Women may have a double challenge due to the historical record of political bias directed against them if they fail to show up the Red passport. But since women are women, all will be well if they also come onto the medias showing various views rather than only the only one current. Second part is so ridiculous it´s hard to know if to laugh or cry. This bishop of yours appears to be almost like an epitome of the Vicar of Bray... Charging everyone as "homophobe" is a rather interesting feat in the annals of bias! This "argument" is also one I´ve heard personally, from a close quarter, once upon a long ago yet some time after the early years of 1990s when major campaining began to expand (that around the time when our Swedish Tory - or Fianna Fail? - equivalent the Moderate Party´s youth branch began collecting name lists for pushing "SS unions" in civil law). Having been an outspoken nay-sayer from day one I was later on at one particular occasion even confronted with something of that kind from a person very close to me. No harm intended but it got me stunned, realising how many or even most other people apparently do think - without having noticed it ever before the turn to 1990s - about "SS" in general. Part three is the hardest to try to solve. This problem is definitely one recurring all the time, not at all restricted to this but also in matters of any "sexual morals" adressed open in public, and everyhting in those matters going on between non-Catholics most of all. Why should you (any Catholic) tell us (anyone else) what to do or how to live? etc. Impossible to get away from, by its very nature, most probably. |
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