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Post by kj on Nov 1, 2020 12:07:32 GMT
Roger has asked me to share a comment I made elsewhere about how Ireland's rapid drive toward secularism strikes an Irishman living in England, so here it is: "I suppose living in England and experiencing at first-hand what it's like to live in what I consider a totally secular and low-grade materialist country fuels my bitchiness about Ireland, as I feel that all the clowns cheerleading for Ireland's secular future simply have no idea what they're turning the place into. England is about 50 years ahead of Ireland in that regard and the results do not inspire me. We're just further back along the curve and there seems to be an idea in a lot of Ireland's people that we can somehow miraculously escape the worst things due to 'Irish exceptionalism' or some such." On reflection, one possible saving grace I would point out is our low population figure. The UK has about 66 million people; in England in particular it is very difficult to escape people and human settlements. Motorways everywhere and so on. Ireland's comparatively low numbers may mean that no matter how awful Dublin becomes it will always be far easier to escape into silence and solitude amongst beautiful natural surroundings. Anyway, my favourite description of contemporary England comes from an essay written by the American Orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart: "An epiphany visited itself upon me nearly twenty years ago, as I stood amid the pestilential squalor of an English railway station, awaiting my train, and deliberating on whether I should risk the ordeal of a British Rail sandwich. Generally one might prefer grander settings for one's moments of illumination--Wordsworth's lakes, Amiel's azure peaks--but it was, in this instance, the very dreariness of my surroundings that occasioned my awakening. The station's oblong pillars were blackly begrimed; shreds of posters in garish hues hung limply from the walls; in shallow depressions of the concrete floor opaque pools of oleaginous water glistened with a sinister opalescence; an astringent chemical odor of antiseptics vying with various organic purulences suffused the damp air; a scattering of garret torsos farther along the platform bore eloquent witness to the malaise of Britain's post-war gene pool; and nothing was out of the ordinary. But, all at once, two thoughts occurred to me simultaneously, and their wholly fortuitous conjunction amounted to a revelation. One was something like "Boredom is the death of civilization"; and the other something like "America has never been this modern." Not that this place was conspicuously worse than--or even as wretched as--countless stops along the way in the United States, but anyone who has lived in Britain for some time should understand how such a place might, in a moment of calm clarity, seem like the gray glacial heart of a gray and glaciated universe. Somehow this place was adequate to its age--to that pervasive social atmosphere of resignation at which modern Britain is all but unsurpassed; it was disenchantment made palpable, the material manifestation of a national soul unstirred by extravagant expectations or exorbitant hopes. Admittedly, contemporary England's epic drabness makes everything seem worse; in the Mediterranean sun, culture's decay can be intoxicatingly charming (and Catholic decadence is so much richer than Protestant decadence)." It comes from this essay on America and religion that I think Roger in particular might find very interesting. Religion in America: Ancient and Modern
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 1, 2020 12:17:00 GMT
There does seem to be a desolation about Britain today, though. The melancholy of the English soul was always tempered by the presence of Christianity, even diluted as it was. Now that it is effectively gone that melancholy seems to be replaced by nihilism. Even if it is sometimes a cheerful and ironic nihilism. You see it in contemporary situation comedies especially. My last visit to England was to the area around Tunbridge Wells and I was actually pleased at how much of "old" Englishness had been preserved there. That may be unusual, though, especially as it is protected by planning laws and is surprisingly rural. I wrote a blog post on this topic-- actually originally written for the Catholic Voice. I see I mentioned this forum in the preamble of the blog post. I dislike linking to something I wrote myself but it's relevant here, I thought I would make an exception. irishpapist.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-dying-of-light.html?m=1
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Post by kj on Nov 1, 2020 13:00:38 GMT
Excellent blog post, Maolsheachlann.
I remember when I first moved here as a naive greenhorn I was struck and horrified by the downbeat, inexpressive nature of English life. Someone to whom I expressed this periodically one day grew tired of it and said, "For god's sake, Karl! Of course we're all dying on the inside here!"
The tv example is a very good one. The all-pervasive ironic, cynical knowing attitude really sickens me. I always connect this with England's seemingly endless production of cynical stand-up comedians. It's as if bitter, nihilistic humour is one of the few permitted outlets.
I remember as un undergraduate in Cork being really into Philip Larkin's poetry and having Andrew Motion's biography as one of my 'go-to books' for a couple years. I think only now with experience do I really appreciate what strikes me as the genuine misery of his life. The daily drinking, the bitter Little England mentality, the refusal to travel abroad (even when he went to Ireland he was paranoid about having his car dumped in the Liffey because of the English license plates), the affairs with the women library staff, the utter emptiness he experienced when he retired and so on and the sadly early death.
But now I would say there isn't even that - it's just a kind of cynical, disenchanted materialism.
To connect it with Ireland, I note some of the same attitude re tv at least. "Love/Hate" (which I never watched), "Normal People", and so on.
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Post by rogerbuck on Nov 1, 2020 14:07:22 GMT
Oh, my. So so much I'd like to say here, including about your very fine piece, Mal. (Have yet to read your much longer link, kj, but I will.)
But your blog goes straight to the heart of so very much that haunts me.
Can't easily comment in depth now, but will say that my recent trips to England, after long years away, also revealed preservations of England's medieval Catholic soul.
And I felt unexpectedly deeply moved, feeling some long lost part of my Englishness.
At the same time, I was in a modern town centre where it seemed every street was lined exclusively with chain stores whether it be Boots, WH Smith, Oxfam - all with sleek shiny standardised LOGOS on them.
I then went to France and the ratio seemed like 1 chain store in 10 to privately owned businesses some very family oriented and very old.
This was alluded to in a video I did. How appalled I felt by England's domination by chain stores and sleek, shiny logos and the far more ORGANIC feel of French high streets, even in Paris!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 1, 2020 14:19:45 GMT
This might be an odd postscript, but the little I've seen of Ed Sheeran (I'm not sure if I've spelt it right) makes me think he is an English pop cultural phenomenon against this current. He played a version of himself in the film Yesterday and it was a very disarming, self-deprecating role with a lot of charm. More recently I saw one of his music videos which is just one long take of him ballroom dancing with a woman, in formal dress. Given how disturbing and decadent music videos have been for decades, I found this very refreshing and even moving. And although the song itself had erotic lyrics it was also quite romantic.
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Post by rogerbuck on Nov 1, 2020 14:22:15 GMT
Roger has asked me to share a comment I made elsewhere about how Ireland's rapid drive toward secularism strikes an Irishman living in England, so here it is: "I suppose living in England and experiencing at first-hand what it's like to live in what I consider a totally secular and low-grade materialist country fuels my bitchiness about Ireland, as I feel that all the clowns cheerleading for Ireland's secular future simply have no idea what they're turning the place into. England is about 50 years ahead of Ireland in that regard and the results do not inspire me. We're just further back along the curve and there seems to be an idea in a lot of Ireland's people that we can somehow miraculously escape the worst things due to 'Irish exceptionalism' or some such." Some quick comments to this. These words, as I said to you elsewhere, Kj hit me very deeply. They just kept going around and around my mind. It's hard to say fully why. Part of it was your contrast between " totally secular" Britain and Ireland which, latter, still does feel very different indeed to me. At least, where I live in the NW. You are right in pointing to the pronounced "Irish exceptionalism" of the past. As an outsider here, I still feel it keenly. And I have heard countless others echo that. People from other countries who were just startled . . . or even sometimes blown away . . . but certainly startled by just how much kindness, good will, cheer there was here. Having lived in 7-9 countries (depending how you count) I attest it is remarkably different elsewhere. And it will be gone if we turn Ireland into just another L.A.S.P. country. L.A.S.P. comes from something else you posted elsewhere kj and I cheerfully "pirate" it. It stands for Liberal Anglo Saxon Protestant. The WASP countries pioneered liberalism, be it theological, social, economic. I appreciate your spirit of resistance to the sheer cultural power of L.A.S.P. - ness kj and I feel your heart in pain in this post, feeling and seeing what you do living in a "totally secular" country . . . Your pained perspectives of knowing such a society could be most helpful, I think, for those who don't know them so well.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 1, 2020 17:05:14 GMT
This might be an odd postscript, but the little I've seen of Ed Sheeran (I'm not sure if I've spelt it right) makes me think he is an English pop cultural phenomenon against this current. He played a version of himself in the film Yesterday and it was a very disarming, self-deprecating role with a lot of charm. More recently I saw one of his music videos which is just one long take of him ballroom dancing with a woman, in formal dress. Given how disturbing and decadent music videos have been for decades, I found this very refreshing and even moving. And although the song itself had erotic lyrics it was also quite romantic. Personally, I've rather mixed feelings about Ed Sheeran. Certainly, he is capable of writing some very moving and thought-provoking lyrics (in particular, "The A Team" depicts the suffering behind poverty, drug abuse and prostitution in a very sublime manner without glorifiying it or being explicit). On the other hand, some of his other songs (in particular "Shape of You") can be very crude, even if not by American standards. I notice that the explicit music video phenomenon seems to be mainly an American or (to a lesser extent) Continental European thing; music videos by British and Irish artists tend to be more subdued in that respect.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 1, 2020 18:32:36 GMT
This might be an odd postscript, but the little I've seen of Ed Sheeran (I'm not sure if I've spelt it right) makes me think he is an English pop cultural phenomenon against this current. He played a version of himself in the film Yesterday and it was a very disarming, self-deprecating role with a lot of charm. More recently I saw one of his music videos which is just one long take of him ballroom dancing with a woman, in formal dress. Given how disturbing and decadent music videos have been for decades, I found this very refreshing and even moving. And although the song itself had erotic lyrics it was also quite romantic. Personally, I've rather mixed feelings about Ed Sheeran. Certainly, he is capable of writing some very moving and thought-provoking lyrics (in particular, "The A Team" depicts the suffering behind poverty, drug abuse and prostitution in a very sublime manner without glorifiying it or being explicit). On the other hand, some of his other songs (in particular "Shape of You") can be very crude, even if not by American standards. I notice that the explicit music video phenomenon seems to be mainly an American or (to a lesser extent) Continental European thing; music videos by British and Irish artists tend to be more subdued in that respect. You may be right about Sheeran as I haven't heard enough of his stuff. I like the song he co-wrote with Justin Bieber and also found that quite charming. Regarding the music videos, I wasn't so much thinking of sexual explicitness as downright weirdness. I remember being disturbed by the video for Blue Monday by New Order when I was a kid. Ashes to Ashes by David Bowie is another example. Videos like these were parodied by Not the Nine O'Clock News with their own version, Nice Video (Shame About the Song), which is hilarious. The disturbing surrealism in such videos seemed to reflect a view of life as absurd and meaningless. But they are all eighties examples so things may have changed a lot in more recent times.
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Post by cato on Nov 2, 2020 0:06:28 GMT
I fear that Ireland's embrace of late chronic hyper liberalism is one of those occasional radical cultural jumps we experience. The abandonment of paganism in favour of Christianity, the deliberate abandonment of Irish by the common people, mass emigration as a way of life and now the effective abandonment of Christianity in under two generations are all examples of radical often traumatic rupture in Irish history.
All of these jumps occurred relatively quickly as far as we know. In the eyes of many the worst fate that can befall us is to fall to the level of the Brits. Arguably they have been in some sort of cultural moral decline since Victorian times. It has taken us 30 odd years to catch up with them. I wonder now are we surpassing them in the race to the bottom?
Unlike the UK we mandated Same Sex marriage and abortion by massive popular votes. We are surpassing them too in our trans laws and soon in our Euthanasia laws. Our civic culture also lacks the mystique around the crown and national pride in the armed forces. Lest we forget an Irexit vote is unimaginable. They still have national confidence and self belief.
Forget worrying about becoming like them we are now racing way ahead of the Anglo dinosaurs as the best little progressive place on earth.
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Post by rogerbuck on Nov 2, 2020 0:33:30 GMT
I wonder now are we surpassing them in the race to the bottom? Unlike the UK we mandated Same Sex marriage and abortion by massive popular votes. We are surpassing them too in our trans laws and soon in our Euthanasia laws. Our civic culture also lacks the mystique around the crown and national pride in the armed forces. Lest we forget an Irexit vote is unimaginable. They still have national confidence and self belief. Forget worrying about becoming like them we are now racing way ahead of the Anglo dinosaurs as the best little progressive place on earth. Alas, Cato, your pained, awful points have considerable merit, I think. They do, however, seem to me to mainly concern the Irish elites, who may well be more consistently (or across the board) outpacing the "Anglo dinosaurs"! But I think one thing that so resonated with me about kj's original post is that Ireland as a whole - not the elites - still feels nowhere near as "totally secular" as Britain does. There is still far, far more faith among the common people of Ireland than in England. And far more warmth and kindness. I even dare to say: human-ness. And this should give us much pause for thought, along with Mal's remarkable riff on Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI: I've been re-reading your piece Mal. Again, it is very, very good and ties in so well with Kj's words above which so mysteriously worked on me . . . Ireland arguably had more faith than anywhere in Europe till very recently. She still has remarkable qualities I don't feel in English culture and I ask how to awaken the common people of Ireland to their elite's fawning imitation of L.A.S.P. culture . . .
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Post by SedNomini on Nov 2, 2020 11:07:29 GMT
Is Ireland doomed to become a version of England?
My sunnier self has hope for the reconquest. We never guillotined our nuns nor made it our National Identity to be explicitly "anti-the Pope of Rome" etc. Had we done that, I think a lot of us would be too proud to apologize and reconcile with Her. The hurdle would be too high. We mostly just don't know the Faith, for Millenials (myself), and younger, the Church has been an impotent joke, we don't know Christ. I reverted to the Faith through watching Youtube Videos. It was apologetics and Church history. The information was all new to me, never had I heard of the Summa, the Social Teaching, the Kingship of Christ, the Live's of the Saints etc. etc. And being Irish, the protestant stuff always felt shallow, unserious, irreverent, too much like religion-as-a-consumable.
I think we are seeing the stirrings of people walking away from materialism and secularism in Ireland right now. I've a Zoomer younger brother who's discerning, himself and his buddies (also recent reverts) are all becoming Monarchists and Trads, they know the enemy isn't Islam or Communism, but Liberalism itself. They're rejecting the whole hog intellectually. They might be a small vanguard, but it's a Traditional Catholic vanguard. The same is true for fellas my age Stateside (I'm living here, trying to get home). All the serious young Catholics are joining our FSSP parish, they are getting married, the wives are being supported at home and we all are talking about how best to put together a traditional curriculum for home-schooling. One major stumbling block I see is that we need to hear the moral case for mass-repatriation in response to the weaponised mass-migration we are suffering. The alienation of people's own hometowns and cities is what disturbs them. If the Church doesn't make that case, Pagans will. The 2020s will be a sea-change politically and spiritually, for Ireland I think people will become Catholic, slaves, or they'll despair. Can England say the same? The Brit-Nats online do seem to be hovering ever-closer to the Church, which is hopeful.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 2, 2020 11:55:35 GMT
Welcome, SedNomini. I'm glad you found your way to faith, patriotism and all those good things, and pleased to hear your Zoomer brother has too! Never heard that term before.
Of course, being a middle-aged fogey, I worry some young folks might react against PC propaganda too far in the opposite direction. I see it in my own family. But who knows who is correct here?
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Post by SedNomini on Nov 2, 2020 12:04:05 GMT
Welcome, SedNomini. I'm glad you found your way to faith, patriotism and all those good things, and pleased to hear your Zoomer brother has too! Never heard that term before. Of course, being a middle-aged fogey, I worry some young folks might react against PC propaganda too far in the opposite direction. I see it in my own family. But who knows who is correct here? Go raibh míle as ocht an fáilte! You know, the reaction always does go too far, but there is a long way to go to get to the "too far zone". The Church could set the correct boundary for the resurgent Faithful, but anything in that vein is seemingly way too un-PC for the current hierarchy. Either they take the slings and arrows of the Empire's media or I fear the response will go "too far" and the Church will then have no credibility to correct
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Post by rogerbuck on Nov 2, 2020 19:14:20 GMT
Is Ireland doomed to become a version of England? My sunnier self has hope for the reconquest. We never guillotined our nuns nor made it our National Identity to be explicitly "anti-the Pope of Rome" etc. Had we done that, I think a lot of us would be too proud to apologize and reconcile with Her. The hurdle would be too high. We mostly just don't know the Faith, for Millenials (myself), and younger, the Church has been an impotent joke, we don't know Christ. I reverted to the Faith through watching Youtube Videos. It was apologetics and Church history. The information was all new to me, never had I heard of the Summa, the Social Teaching, the Kingship of Christ, the Live's of the Saints etc. etc. And being Irish, the protestant stuff always felt shallow, unserious, irreverent, too much like religion-as-a-consumable. I think we are seeing the stirrings of people walking away from materialism and secularism in Ireland right now. I've a Zoomer younger brother who's discerning, himself and his buddies (also recent reverts) are all becoming Monarchists and Trads, they know the enemy isn't Islam or Communism, but Liberalism itself. They're rejecting the whole hog intellectually. They might be a small vanguard, but it's a Traditional Catholic vanguard. The same is true for fellas my age Stateside (I'm living here, trying to get home). All the serious young Catholics are joining our FSSP parish, they are getting married, the wives are being supported at home and we all are talking about how best to put together a traditional curriculum for home-schooling. Thank you SedNomini for this. It is very interesting and brings me HOPE! I want to let rip with something passionate. But first, I need to say something that may sound "contrarian". Mal may approve ; -) . . . But please don't take it wrongly. There are times when I worry that YouTube and such may be creating something of an "alternative magisterium". And since the Youtube videos the Irish see will be mainly American, I fear that "alternative magisterium" may carry an overly American - or even Republican Party - tone. (It would be very different if, for example, the Irish were seeing Traditionalist/ Nouvelle Droite French YouTubers.) Now that I've sounded that contrarian note, though, I can passionately "let rip"! What you write here is very, very interesting. I am thrilled you found your way to the Faith through this route. It's very encouraging indeed to hear this of both you and others. And it names a dimension I don't see enough, as I try to avoid the internet. Yes, I hear what you're describing remains a small phenomenon. Still it's one I don't factor in highly enough. And there are older folk here who, I imagine, can feel depression about Ireland. And perhaps, like me, they, too, may not be taking sufficient account of what you're pointing us to. So I am grateful indeed for your report from your generation, would like to hear more - and also hope you make it back to Ireland! Again, thank you for bringing hope ...
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Post by rogerbuck on Nov 2, 2020 23:24:35 GMT
Of course, being a middle-aged fogey, I worry some young folks might react against PC propaganda too far in the opposite direction. I wonder what I am then? A decrepit old fogey I guess : - ) Herewith further mumblings. Insufficiently worked out . . . just in case anyone wants to listen. I feel quite struck by the implications in your posts, SedNomini - implications that seem extraordinary. For never in the history of the Church has a generation of Catholics been catechised like yours is - via YouTube! Again, I feel real concern and real hope. Who are the catechists, I wonder? Not watching Youtube much, I imagine that to a considerable extent the catechists concerned spring from two identifiable cultures: American culture and youth culture. And yet I lie ... because I DO watch Youtube . . . French YouTube to improve my French. French culture . . . so different from the youthful "can do" culture of America . . . with all its French "built in hierarchical" barriers, where people still have higher expectations of greater credentials, age, authority. Seeing French culture, I am in general concerned about the world swimming in L.A.S.P. culture - that so, so much, if not everything, takes on an Anglo-American flavouring. This includes the relatively few American Catholic YouTubers I have seen . . . who may be quite, quite different from ones you have seen! I confess it - PRIOR to your posts here SedNomini I have felt concern for this "alternative magisterium" stemming out of American "can do" culture, where the hierarchical barriers are lower. Where anyone can just do it! But now you post these things SedNomini and I see the hope, one is tempted to say the miracle you point to . . . The ordinary Magisterium working through the bishops of Ireland FAILED you. But through what I call this "alternative Magisterium" - based largely I think on youthful "can do" American culture - you speak of, yes a MIRACLE: I reverted to the Faith through watching Youtube Videos. It was apologetics and Church history. The information was all new to me, never had I heard of the Summa, the Social Teaching, the Kingship of Christ, the Live's of the Saints etc. etc. And being Irish, the protestant stuff always felt shallow, unserious, irreverent, too much like religion-as-a-consumable. . Never had you heard of the lives of the Saints, apologetics, the Summa ... ! And your brother and his friends in Ireland ... and other friends in the US. Again, I feel extraordinary implications in all of this . . . that may help the "old fogeys" here. Thank you so much.
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