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Post by kj on Oct 7, 2021 13:08:47 GMT
Arguments about the utilitarianism of the Church are a bit of a doomed enterprise in my view. By what metric are you measuring? If you say the Church has been responsible for humanitarian work, kindness, charity etc then this presupposes the independent nature of such values anyway, which as Cato intimates, could in theory have been promoted even more without the theological and moral baggage.
Plus for those who have had their lives destroyed by the church I'm pretty sure it doesn't wash. For example, it's almost a certainty that Jewish history would have been far less traumatic without the Catholic Church.
In my own view, the best hope for the future of the institution is the fact that secular society is so pro-homosexual now that anyone who joined before with the express design of having access to the young or meeting others of their persuasion has far better options by staying out of the church rather than in.
Anyone who becomes a priest now in the western world is definitely swimming against the tide and is making a very free choice. As Benedict intimated, the future church may be smaller, but it may be of higher quality in terms of its members.
Maybe.
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Post by Stephen on Oct 7, 2021 13:39:50 GMT
Arguments about the utilitarianism of the Church are a bit of a doomed enterprise in my view. By what metric are you measuring? If you say the Church has been responsible for humanitarian work, kindness, charity etc then this presupposes the independent nature of such values anyway, which as Cato intimates, could in theory have been promoted even more without the theological and moral baggage. Plus for those who have had their lives destroyed by the church I'm pretty sure it doesn't wash. For example, it's almost a certainty that Jewish history would have been far less traumatic without the Catholic Church. In my own view, the best hope for the future of the institution is the fact that secular society is so pro-homosexual now that anyone who joined before with the express design of of having access to the young or meeting others of their persuasion has far better options by staying out of the church rather than in. Anyone who becomes a priest now in the western world is definitely swimming against the tide and is making a very free choice. As Benedict intimated, the future church may be smaller, but it may be of higher quality in terms of its members. Maybe. In all fairness, if all the Religions are false and the current Cultus is correct. Who cares about a lot of these issues as the issue we are discussing have no meaning and God is dead. I'm Catholic as I beleive it is the way and truth."In my own view, the best hope for the future of the institution is the fact that secular society is so pro-homosexual now that anyone who joined before with the express design of having access to the young or meeting others of their persuasion has far better options by staying out of the church rather than in." I would imagine you are right for the most part, unfortunately, plenty of them still exist and are actively encouraged to join.
"Anyone who becomes a priest now in the western world is swimming against the tide and is making a very free choice. As Benedict intimated, the future church may be smaller, but it may be of higher quality in terms of its members." This would be true the hierarchy was not actively persecuting traditionally-minded Religious and clergy across the World.
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Post by kj on Oct 7, 2021 13:57:29 GMT
I'm not sure your last comment was intimating it, but regardless, the whole idea of the "real" church and "true" Catholics isn't very helpful in my view. As the original meaning of the word in terms of the concept of universality implies, a Catholic is a Catholic is a Catholic if they're baptised, declare themselves Catholic and partake of the sacraments, however frequently or not, regardless of whether they care a damn about the Latin Mass or not. Plus as all the various reports demonstrates, it's not as if priests raised in the pre-Vatican II "traditional" era were somehow immune to committing abuse.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 7, 2021 14:08:22 GMT
Arguments about the utilitarianism of the Church are a bit of a doomed enterprise in my view. By what metric are you measuring?. Human happiness, according to the Benthamite understanding that push-pin is equal to poetry. But that also imples poetry is equal to push-pin. In other words, that we have to include the sense of the sublime, transcendent, etc. as well as humanitarianism.
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Post by kj on Oct 7, 2021 14:37:07 GMT
Arguments about the utilitarianism of the Church are a bit of a doomed enterprise in my view. By what metric are you measuring?. Human happiness, according to the Benthamite understanding that push-pin is equal to poetry. But that also imples poetry is equal to push-pin. In other words, that we have to include the sense of the sublime, transcendent, etc. as well as humanitarianism. It's precisely that vague generality that makes utilitarianism useless in my view. As we've always known, but as the age of social media has highlighted beyond any doubt, humans agree on very, very little. Concepts of the good and happiness differ widely from individual to individual. Ironically, though, one thing that most people and cultures agree on is that the abuse and sexual torture of children is a hideous moral crime, and the church has done more than its share of that. Whether one thinks this is somehow offset or "compensated" for by its humanitarian work and aesthetic achievements is a matter for each conscience to decide.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 7, 2021 14:51:56 GMT
Human happiness, according to the Benthamite understanding that push-pin is equal to poetry. But that also imples poetry is equal to push-pin. In other words, that we have to include the sense of the sublime, transcendent, etc. as well as humanitarianism. It's precisely that vague generality that makes utilitarianism useless in my view. As we've always known, but as the age of social media has highlighted beyond any doubt, humans agree on very, very little. Concepts of the good and happiness differ widely from individual to individual. Ironically, though, one thing that most people and cultures agree on is that the abuse and sexual torture of children is a hideous moral crime, and the church has done more than its share of that. Whether one thinks this is somehow offset or "compensated" for by its humanitarian work and aesthetic achievements is a matter for each conscience to decide. Well, I think all cultures agree that the sexual abuse of children is wrong, but a particularly heinous view of it seems particular to the last few decades. I remember my father telling me that cartoons about vicars and choir-boys were quite common within living memory. And there's a danger of exaggeration-- sexual torture? Sometimes, but it's muddying the waters when "child rape" is regularly used when we are talking about clerical sexual abuse. There's obviously a spectrum of abuse from groping to actual rape. It's unpleasant talking about these things but we should at least be proportionate. Again, not wishing to be insensitive, just trying to see things in proportion.
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Post by kj on Oct 7, 2021 15:10:15 GMT
Well, I think all cultures agree that the sexual abuse of children is wrong, but a particularly heinous view of it seems particular to the last few decades. I remember my father telling me that cartoons about vicars and choir-boys were quite common within living memory. And there's a danger of exaggeration-- sexual torture? Sometimes, but it's muddying the waters when "child rape" is regularly used when we are talking about clerical sexual abuse. There's obviously a spectrum of abuse from groping to actual rape. It's unpleasant talking about these things but we should at least be proportionate. Again, not wishing to be insensitive, just trying to see things in proportion. Well I'm afraid that's where our views on this matter most definitely part company. That kind of language, intentionally or otherwise, whiffs to me of excuse-seeking. Being groped and fondled against one's will as a young child can lead to plenty of later trauma. As for "I think all cultures agree that the sexual abuse of children is wrong, but a particularly heinous view of it seems particular to the last few decades", is to surrender to, or seek excuses from, the kind of moral relativism that I thought the church was completely against.
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Post by Stephen on Oct 7, 2021 15:17:12 GMT
This issue is a difficult one and has many different factors. What is never mentioned is the vast majority of abuse is by predatory homosexuals that abuse teenagers and young men. If the current church is mandating Priest say if they have been vaccinated against covid. Why not also get them to show if they have STDs (side issue) or HIV?
Another is the Saint Gallen Group and how it has protected so many of these people. KJ I want to state one more time I don't think abuse started the day the council ended.
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Post by kj on Oct 7, 2021 15:24:16 GMT
This issue is a difficult one and has many different factors. What is never mentioned is the vast majority of abuse is by predatory homosexuals that abuse teenagers and young men. If the current church is mandating Priest say if they have been vaccinated against covid. Why not also get them to show if they have STDs (side issue) or HIV? I'm kind of gobsmacked by this. Do you think only homosexuals contract STDs and HIV?
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Post by Séamus on Oct 8, 2021 7:01:42 GMT
I'm afraid for me anyway the standard Catholic defence about sexual abuse being ubiquitous throughout society, families etc doesn't really cut it. The Church explicitly sets itself up as a supreme moral arbiter and storehold of truth and goodness. We all know Jesus's warnings about what will happen to those who harm children. At what point do the usual lines about the Church being "only a human institution", "priests being flawed" etc become untenable and the reality of generational abuse and official cover-up render the church's very existence as questionable? We're not talking here,of course,about whether the numbers pale in comparison or how lightly Catholics may get off as a result, but we are talking about whether there was much perception about the crime in a certain era, whether people thought it better not to talk about it in a certain era, what sort of view they had towards persons who did this. And the pre-60s Church can certainly be judged in that particular light, not from the measure of our times or even Peter Damian's era which is now quite remote- it would be like comparison between Renaissance standards and Victorian ones. Another thought that came to me later was the larger amount of resistance to the modern liturgy in France- between the two relevant Motu Proprios it was estimated that about half of the country's Sunday mass-goers attended the traditional liturgy. As with the often-mentioned Muslim ascendancy in France, I'm not sure how numbers are made in a country that prides in a secular constitution (I'm guessing census forms never ask religious affiliation), but we're looking at a large amount of the recent vocations also, as well as Scott groups, so, having a less clean rupture pre- and post-1960 it's really not an ideal place for an Old vs New study in any form.
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Post by Stephen on Oct 8, 2021 7:12:14 GMT
This issue is a difficult one and has many different factors. What is never mentioned is the vast majority of abuse is by predatory homosexuals that abuse teenagers and young men. If the current church is mandating Priest say if they have been vaccinated against covid. Why not also get them to show if they have STDs (side issue) or HIV? I'm kind of gobsmacked by this. Do you think only homosexuals contract STDs and HIV? I wasn't being serious about the testing as it would be unethical like the idea of priests announcing the covid vaccine status. People that live a degenerate life will obviously have a far greater likelihood of contracting them in the west atleast. I could have also said let's check there Internet history for apps like grinder. Kj or anyone else would you mind addressing the elephant in the room. What is your thoughts on the predatory Homosexuals that are rampant now and clearly in the past?
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 9:26:36 GMT
I'm kind of gobsmacked by this. Do you think only homosexuals contract STDs and HIV? I wasn't being serious about the testing as it would be unethical like the idea of priests announcing the covid vaccine status. People that live a degenerate life will obviously have a far greater likelihood of contracting them in the west atleast. I could have also said let's check there Internet history for apps like grinder. Kj or anyone else would you mind addressing the elephant in the room. What is your thoughts on the predatory Homosexuals that are rampant now and clearly in the past? Predatory Homosexuals is a major problem in the Church! This is obvious to anyone who has done any research at all on the topic. People are afraid to speech out as they fear there going be called Homophobes,etc.
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2021 11:28:54 GMT
[quote
Kj or anyone else would you mind addressing the elephant in the room. What is your thoughts on the predatory Homosexuals that are rampant now and clearly in the past?[/quote]
Stephen it has been discussed here on various occasions I recall so it's not an elephant in the room or on the site.
I doubt any believing catholic is in favour of philandering vow breaking clergy of whatever inclination. If they can't keep their trousers on they should have the guts to leave or failing that be sacked.
Was the medieval pre Tridentine Church any less decadent? We don't know as we hadn't social media back then.
We also had one additional factor. A totally incoherent incompetent cover up, denial and then a refusal by most bishops to resign when their failed pastoral approach to paedophile clergy was unveiled. This alienated many catholics. Undermined faith. Betrayed again the victims of abuse. Undermined their authority as pastors and teachers of the truth. This is not a simple matter of scapegoating unfaithful gay priests.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2021 14:18:14 GMT
It's true that most sexual abuse by priests seems to be of boys, not girls or men or women.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on Oct 8, 2021 14:23:01 GMT
It's true that most sexual abuse by priests seems to be of boys, not girls or men or women. postpubescent boys or teenagers which sounds a lot more like homosexual rape. A lot of the investigations seems to stop looking into the rape once over the legal age for some reason! In my book, it's all just as bad! just getting the terminology right. All should be shoot!
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