|
Post by Tomas on Mar 15, 2023 12:33:12 GMT
Has there been any bucketing to speak of? Is the baby still alive in the miasma. Maybe priests and bishops have been bucketing out, maybe they've been donning sackcloths and ashes and striking in protest, and demanding atonement for lives destroyed, but I haven't heard much about it. Clearly, they ARE 'connected' as a whole. These were Catholic priests abusing and Catholic hierarchy looking the other way or colluding, and Catholic congregations supporting the institutions through continued attendance. Aren't we told the Church is one body? In a human body rot might be found in the arm, leg or bowels, but it's still the same body, unattended it spreads and kills. Who knows how far the rot goes. Does the church including rank and file have the stomach to look in to the rotten abyss. Apostasy, a cordon sanitaire might indeed be the way to go. Imagine a boycott, or a walkout, or if no one turned up on Sunday. At the very least conscientious objection—Catholics at all levels refusing to support the organisation until there is atonement. Wouldn't the need for a thorough diagnostic be clear if it was any other organisation, the Quakers or some secular organisation say? This is a hierarchical institution after all and if those at the head of the organisation don't shine the surgical light on it and excoriate it, if it doesn't demand and demand and demand atonement aren't they tacitly agreeing with it and letting it fester. As for bathwater, and blaming etc, one honest man in a thousand etc mightn't the same argument be made for any organisation exhibiting sociopathic behaviour? No-one can blame individual members of an organisation responsible for their choices — is that true though? Following orders and similar pleading doesn't wash anymore. What about holding those who hold the purse strings of the organisation, or those who fill the coffers, accountable to those wronged. Eala makes some excellent points. There is no point in minimising the horror of abuses which seem to be ongoing in papal circles. We need a major reform and clean up . Perhaps a decade of sackcloth and ashes and mass episcopal resignations. Lough Derg in Donegal is a great traditional site for public penance. Instead we have been subjected to Synodial navel gazing which ignores this festering sore. Many of the Synodial fathers were or are involved in serious cover up. It is a gigantic exercise in deflecting from arguably the greatest church scandal in modern times. It has led to the loss in faith for millions. Woe to those who would undermine the faith of the little ones..... I didn´t mean to minimise the rot and lack of action in dealings against it either. It is obviously a great disease - sins crying out to heaven - no doubt at all about that. But to practically purge the Church much more than any single type of outward display is needed. To eliminate evil there must be perpetual conversions. Many things like you mentioned also appropriate. But to suggest to have 900+ millions parishioners abstain from Holy Communion during the purge for months and years is not possible, not even a sane solution.
|
|
eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by eala on Mar 15, 2023 13:18:14 GMT
Eala makes some excellent points. There is no point in minimising the horror of abuses which seem to be ongoing in papal circles. We need a major reform and clean up . Perhaps a decade of sackcloth and ashes and mass episcopal resignations. Lough Derg in Donegal is a great traditional site for public penance. Instead we have been subjected to Synodial navel gazing which ignores this festering sore. Many of the Synodial fathers were or are involved in serious cover up. It is a gigantic exercise in deflecting from arguably the greatest church scandal in modern times. It has led to the loss in faith for millions. Woe to those who would undermine the faith of the little ones..... I didn´t mean to minimise the rot and lack of action in dealings against it either. It is obviously a great disease - sins crying out to heaven - no doubt at all about that. But to practically purge the Church much more than any single type of outward display is needed. To eliminate evil there must be perpetual conversions. Many things like you mentioned also appropriate. But to suggest to have 900+ millions parishioners abstain from Holy Communion during the purge for months and years is not possible, not even a sane solution. Spot on Cato. I imagine an Irish clergy with the fierceness of the early monks. They're up Lough Derg on hunger strike. It's front page news. Not that I see it happening but it would be an appropriate response. Tomás: regarding sins crying out to heaven; the murder of innocence is crying out like the blood of Abel for all to hear, and what's the response from the church and faithful? God may move in mysterious ways but the movement of the clergy and massgoers is all too predictable. Same old track, mealy mouthed head scratching, circling the wagons. And from the religious orders, obfuscating, securing assets in holding companies, and business as usual. If you think a single response from the laity or the clergy isn't sufficient, fair enough, but maybe START with ONE. Have SOME display. Symbolic displays and practical action don't have to be antithetical. What would this practicality and symbolic entail?
First thing is both practical and symbolic — if you're going wildly in the wrong direction, which clearly the Irish church is... you might ... stop. Never mind the 900 million, look to our own doorstep, a boycott of mass by IRISH church going public for a even a month would be significant.
Empty collection plates for an indefinite period might go some way towards getting a response.
There is no elimination of evil. Evil is an existential reality, but clearly flourishes and festers when ignored and hidden. Perpetual conversion to courage would go a long way to atonement, but there is little of that in evidence.
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Mar 16, 2023 10:10:52 GMT
I didn´t mean to minimise the rot and lack of action in dealings against it either. It is obviously a great disease - sins crying out to heaven - no doubt at all about that. But to practically purge the Church much more than any single type of outward display is needed. To eliminate evil there must be perpetual conversions. Many things like you mentioned also appropriate. But to suggest to have 900+ millions parishioners abstain from Holy Communion during the purge for months and years is not possible, not even a sane solution. Spot on Cato. I imagine an Irish clergy with the fierceness of the early monks. They're up Lough Derg on hunger strike. It's front page news. Not that I see it happening but it would be an appropriate response. Tomás: regarding sins crying out to heaven; the murder of innocence is crying out like the blood of Abel for all to hear, and what's the response from the church and faithful? God may move in mysterious ways but the movement of the clergy and massgoers is all too predictable. Same old track, mealy mouthed head scratching, circling the wagons. And from the religious orders, obfuscating, securing assets in holding companies, and business as usual. If you think a single response from the laity or the clergy isn't sufficient, fair enough, but maybe START with ONE. Have SOME display. Symbolic displays and practical action don't have to be antithetical. What would this practicality and symbolic entail?
First thing is both practical and symbolic — if you're going wildly in the wrong direction, which clearly the Irish church is... you might ... stop. Never mind the 900 million, look to our own doorstep, a boycott of mass by IRISH church going public for a even a month would be significant.
Empty collection plates for an indefinite period might go some way towards getting a response.
There is no elimination of evil. Evil is an existential reality, but clearly flourishes and festers when ignored and hidden. Perpetual conversion to courage would go a long way to atonement, but there is little of that in evidence.
We can never be alive without the Sacraments. That´s the reason any such response as total walkaway is no solution. If you demand everyone to abstain from Christ you will not be helped. The sinners are there, but Christ is too. It´s not at all that I don´t want everyone to take as much good actions as they can. To Boycott Christ in the Sacraments is against sanity only. Demand Halls of Shame or other callings out of the human devils, that´s right, but total walkaway from God just to show protest like in politics, that would be wrong. But agreed entirely with you this present too little done, next to nothing, is disastrous.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Mar 16, 2023 12:37:32 GMT
Eala makes some excellent points. There is no point in minimising the horror of abuses which seem to be ongoing in papal circles. We need a major reform and clean up . Perhaps a decade of sackcloth and ashes and mass episcopal resignations. Lough Derg in Donegal is a great traditional site for public penance. Instead we have been subjected to Synodial navel gazing which ignores this festering sore. Many of the Synodial fathers were or are involved in serious cover up. It is a gigantic exercise in deflecting from arguably the greatest church scandal in modern times. It has led to the loss in faith for millions. Woe to those who would undermine the faith of the little ones..... I didn´t mean to minimise the rot and lack of action in dealings against it either. It is obviously a great disease - sins crying out to heaven - no doubt at all about that. But to practically purge the Church much more than any single type of outward display is needed. To eliminate evil there must be perpetual conversions. Many things like you mentioned also appropriate. But to suggest to have 900+ millions parishioners abstain from Holy Communion during the purge for months and years is not possible, not even a sane solution. Tomas where did I say that? Most Catholics can do penance and go to communion like ..... during Lent. I also mentioned urgent Reform so I wasn't advocating superficial gestures .We need to stop the pretence that it's business as usual. The rot is worse than the 16th century. This boil must be lanced.
|
|
|
Post by hilary on Mar 16, 2023 14:03:51 GMT
We all need to be forgiven and we can all be forgiven, even those who have abused or covered up abuse.
I think we need to distinguish between the "abuse crisis" which is a stick to beat religion with - especially the Catholic Church, and individual cases whether they be actual cases of abuse or as has no doubt often been the case, allegations which were false.
It doesn't seem as if the Church put or puts up much of a defence to charges of abuse. Maybe they do - maybe there are allegations which are defended and we don't hear about them. But the cases of Cardinal Pell and the priest at the centre of the RTE documentary a few years ago, who cleared his name, spring to mind - no doubt only the tip of the iceberg in terms of false allegations.
Where the allegations were true, it is rare to hear any effort to understand what was going on. I could imagine a child who had been abused - and maybe his/her family - wanting to keep quiet about it and I'm sure Church leaders who "covered up" were in many cases in very difficult situations. It's very easy to criticise but an awful situation to have been in.
When we focus on the sins of others we are not looking at our own sins and it sometimes seems to me that people use the abuse crisis as an excuse because they don't want to embrace the rules themselves.
Staying away from the Church would not give any clear message. The Church is the people and we shouldn't be surprised when people fail. It's sad that there's so much child deprivation and so many children at risk today in secular Ireland but many want to keep the focus on the Church.
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Mar 16, 2023 17:55:40 GMT
I didn´t mean to minimise the rot and lack of action in dealings against it either. It is obviously a great disease - sins crying out to heaven - no doubt at all about that. But to practically purge the Church much more than any single type of outward display is needed. To eliminate evil there must be perpetual conversions. Many things like you mentioned also appropriate. But to suggest to have 900+ millions parishioners abstain from Holy Communion during the purge for months and years is not possible, not even a sane solution. Tomas where did I say that? Most Catholics can do penance and go to communion like ..... during Lent. I also mentioned urgent Reform so I wasn't advocating superficial gestures .We need to stop the pretence that it's business as usual. The rot is worse than the 16th century. This boil must be lanced. Comment was to the response under your response but it fell off when quotes somehow. It is on the top page 6. I do agree with both of you that the rot is far worse than what is acknowledged and practically no hard fight is put up against it. So the disaster itself is just as bad you say. It was the odd suggestions of walkaway in response that was impossible to understand from here. To ignore these devilish deeds, even to promote some of the worst monsters and to not hinder the recent devilish plans in Germany and Rome, must be left out as alternative. Things like this has to be purged, with real discipline instead of loose speeches doing nothing.
|
|
eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by eala on Mar 16, 2023 21:17:51 GMT
We all need to be forgiven and we can all be forgiven, even those who have abused or covered up abuse. I think we need to distinguish between the "abuse crisis" which is a stick to beat religion with - especially the Catholic Church, and individual cases whether they be actual cases of abuse or as has no doubt often been the case, allegations which were false. It doesn't seem as if the Church put or puts up much of a defence to charges of abuse. Maybe they do - maybe there are allegations which are defended and we don't hear about them. But the cases of Cardinal Pell and the priest at the centre of the RTE documentary a few years ago, who cleared his name, spring to mind - no doubt only the tip of the iceberg in terms of false allegations. Where the allegations were true, it is rare to hear any effort to understand what was going on. I could imagine a child who had been abused - and maybe his/her family - wanting to keep quiet about it and I'm sure Church leaders who "covered up" were in many cases in very difficult situations. It's very easy to criticise but an awful situation to have been in. When we focus on the sins of others we are not looking at our own sins and it sometimes seems to me that people use the abuse crisis as an excuse because they don't want to embrace the rules themselves. Staying away from the Church would not give any clear message. The Church is the people and we shouldn't be surprised when people fail. It's sad that there's so much child deprivation and so many children at risk today in secular Ireland but many want to keep the focus on the Church. Wasn't there confession if possible before forgiveness generally.
|
|
eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by eala on Mar 16, 2023 21:31:41 GMT
We can never be alive without the Sacraments. That´s the reason any such response as total walkaway is no solution. If you demand everyone to abstain from Christ you will not be helped. The sinners are there, but Christ is too. It´s not at all that I don´t want everyone to take as much good actions as they can. To Boycott Christ in the Sacraments is against sanity only. Demand Halls of Shame or other callings out of the human devils, that´s right, but total walkaway from God just to show protest like in politics, that would be wrong. But agreed entirely with you this present too little done, next to nothing, is disastrous. "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6) "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matthew 23:27) Christ's thoughts on the matter of formalism and mistreatment of children seem pretty clear.
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Mar 17, 2023 8:51:14 GMT
We all need to be forgiven...etc ... When we focus on the sins of others we are not looking at our own sins and it sometimes seems to me that people use the abuse crisis as an excuse because they don't want to embrace the rules themselves...etc.... I've come across plenty of that!
|
|
eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by eala on Mar 17, 2023 9:03:47 GMT
And we've all met plenty of obfuscation passing itself of as forgiveness. If someone hurts you, it's not up to me to forgive for you. Forgive vicariously if you like, but if you're in earnest about cleaning out the filth you need to call for trial, prosecution and jail, cassock or no, religious belief or no. Let's not pretend either that the church is all pneuma and frankincense, it is, and long has been a very worldly affair with very considerable assets and lawyers.
|
|
|
Post by Séamus on Mar 17, 2023 9:25:07 GMT
We all need to be forgiven and we can all be forgiven, even those who have abused or covered up abuse. I think we need to distinguish between the "abuse crisis" which is a stick to beat religion with - especially the Catholic Church, and individual cases whether they be actual cases of abuse or as has no doubt often been the case, allegations which were false. It doesn't seem as if the Church put or puts up much of a defence to charges of abuse. Maybe they do - maybe there are allegations which are defended and we don't hear about them. But the cases of Cardinal Pell and the priest at the centre of the RTE documentary a few years ago, who cleared his name, spring to mind - no doubt only the tip of the iceberg in terms of false allegations. Where the allegations were true, it is rare to hear any effort to understand what was going on. I could imagine a child who had been abused - and maybe his/her family - wanting to keep quiet about it and I'm sure Church leaders who "covered up" were in many cases in very difficult situations. It's very easy to criticise but an awful situation to have been in. When we focus on the sins of others we are not looking at our own sins and it sometimes seems to me that people use the abuse crisis as an excuse because they don't want to embrace the rules themselves. Staying away from the Church would not give any clear message. The Church is the people and we shouldn't be surprised when people fail. It's sad that there's so much child deprivation and so many children at risk today in secular Ireland but many want to keep the focus on the Church. Wasn't there confession if possible before forgiveness generally. The possiblity of these people confessing on a regular basis has been a point of contention in recent years, governments often often proposing legislation without really knowing what the sacrament is about. Strictly speaking,a person is expected to abandon any serious sins at the time of absolution. Without claiming to know any theology,it can probably be disputed whether the sacrament would even been valid in a worst case scenario of obsessive abusers confessing on a regular basis. Dan Brown may have convinced the general population that priests habitually absolve Catholics guilty of serious crimes on an in-and-out basis,but,on the other end of the spectrum,I'm not entirely sure whether abusers,murderers,etc can be asked to report to the law as part of the conditions for absolution. I know of one emeritus (bishop) who insisted in private that he would remove his stole immediately during a paedophile's confession and declare "we are now discussing this outside of confession" (as the first mention was during Penance he would still of course be unable to report this). I know of another priest who insisted that no such confession would ever take place as paedophiles don't and can't believe that they do anything wrong. I had suggested once that,like abortion in the past, absolution can be withheld until extraordinary conditions are met- I was told that this is largely inconsistent with John Paul's revision of canon law, despite the abortion rule existing in some countries until a few years ago. Whatever the solution might be,the idea that government, media and many,Catholics and non-, have of priests habitually absolving each other and molesting children again is a contortion of the sacrament should really be.
|
|
|
Post by Tomas on Mar 17, 2023 13:54:27 GMT
And we've all met plenty of obfuscation passing itself of as forgiveness. If someone hurts you, it's not up to me to forgive for you. Forgive vicariously if you like, but if you're in earnest about cleaning out the filth you need to call for trial, prosecution and jail, cassock or no, religious belief or no. Let's not pretend either that the church is all pneuma and frankincense, it is, and long has been a very worldly affair with very considerable assets and lawyers. Yes, cleaning out - Holy Mother Church purging herself - is necessary. To talk and talk and do nothing is cause to frustration.
|
|
|
Post by cato on Mar 17, 2023 16:01:35 GMT
[quote Dan Brown may have convinced the general population that priests habitually absolve Catholics guilty of serious crimes on an in-and-out basis,but,on the other end of the spectrum,I'm not entirely sure whether abusers,murderers,etc can be asked to report to the law as part of the conditions for absolution.
I know of one emeritus (bishop) who insisted in private that he would remove his stole immediately during a paedophile's confession and declare "we are now discussing this outside of confession" (as the first mention was during Penance he would still of course be unable to report this). I know of another priest who insisted that no such confession would ever take place as paedophiles don't and can't believe that they do anything wrong. I had suggested once that,like abortion in the past, absolution can be withheld until extraordinary conditions are met- I was told that this is largely inconsistent with John Paul's revision of canon law, despite the abortion rule existing in some countries until a few years ago.
Whatever the solution might be,the idea that government, media and many,Catholics and non-, have of priests habitually absolving each other and molesting children again is a contortion of the sacrament should really be.[/quote]
I have no doubts that men who abused and raped children also abused the sacraments with impunity or ignored them completely. The little ones are a special innocent part of the mystical hody of Christ.
I do suspect Seamus some senior clergy may not have been as prudent as you suggest and may have heard confessions of abusers or may have blurred boundaries between a sacramental seal and professional confidentiality. Thus rendered them silent or suspicious looking when criminal investigations occur. It's a terrible mess where many bishops seem to have failed miserably.
|
|
eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by eala on Mar 17, 2023 20:01:25 GMT
By confession I meant to the secular authorities; is anyone under any illusion that it's taken seriously in house.
|
|
eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
|
Post by eala on Mar 17, 2023 20:03:18 GMT
[quote Dan Brown may have convinced the general population that priests habitually absolve Catholics guilty of serious crimes on an in-and-out basis,but,on the other end of the spectrum,I'm not entirely sure whether abusers,murderers,etc can be asked to report to the law as part of the conditions for absolution. I know of one emeritus (bishop) who insisted in private that he would remove his stole immediately during a paedophile's confession and declare "we are now discussing this outside of confession" (as the first mention was during Penance he would still of course be unable to report this). I know of another priest who insisted that no such confession would ever take place as paedophiles don't and can't believe that they do anything wrong. I had suggested once that,like abortion in the past, absolution can be withheld until extraordinary conditions are met- I was told that this is largely inconsistent with John Paul's revision of canon law, despite the abortion rule existing in some countries until a few years ago. Whatever the solution might be,the idea that government, media and many,Catholics and non-, have of priests habitually absolving each other and molesting children again is a contortion of the sacrament should really be. I have no doubts that men who abused and raped children also abused the sacraments with impunity or ignored them completely. The little ones are a special innocent part of the mystical hody of Christ. I do suspect Seamus some senior clergy may not have been as prudent as you suggest and may have heard confessions of abusers or may have blurred boundaries between a sacramental seal and professional confidentiality. Thus rendered them silent or suspicious looking when criminal investigations occur. It's a terrible mess where many bishops seem to have failed miserably. [/quote] Blurring boundaries, and moving goalposts is the name of the game, Cato.
|
|