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Post by connacht4096 on May 16, 2022 21:49:18 GMT
I know a lot of you seem to have negative views of some of my more radical proposals, but i would like to ask what would you do to undo the decline of the irish language? how would you attempt to save the native tounge of the people of eirie?
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Post by cato on May 16, 2022 22:40:22 GMT
I would remove it from schools and ban any state promotion of it. Drive it underground. The current policy has Irish on life support. It has helped prevent total eradication but its not going to achieve much else.
Eventually many people might turn to it voluntarily as it would become counter cultural and may become a peaceful cultural alterative to the soullessness of modern life. The original zeal and enthusiasm of the 19th century cultural revival might be looked at again with some profit. The example of Modern Wales might offer some practical pointers.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 16, 2022 22:42:17 GMT
Use it.
I know this is a radical proposal, but there you go.
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Post by Seán Ó Murchú on May 17, 2022 8:28:38 GMT
We need to look to other countries that have successfully revived a language. One such example is the revival of spoken Hebrew from no native speakers to 8.3 million residents of Israel. Only half of those who speak it in Israel use it as their first language, but it is widespread as the second language. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language#Revival_of_spoken_HebrewI agree with Mal, we need to all individuals use it as a start. Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste:)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 17, 2022 8:39:40 GMT
Deirim an Choróin Mhuire gach lá i nGaeilge.
Rud beag is feidir linn go léir a dheanamh, b'fhéidir.
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Post by Stephen on May 17, 2022 13:08:37 GMT
Deirim an Choróin Mhuire gach lá i nGaeilge. Rud beag is feidir linn go léir a dheanamh, b'fhéidir. Guím as Gaeilge. An chuid is mó den am. NB(giota beag Gaeilge)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 17, 2022 14:37:18 GMT
Deirim an Choróin Mhuire gach lá i nGaeilge. Rud beag is feidir linn go léir a dheanamh, b'fhéidir. Guím as Gaeilge. An chuid is mó den am. NB(giota beag Gaeilge) Mo cheol thú! Bravo!
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Post by assisi on May 17, 2022 18:05:18 GMT
I know a lot of you seem to have negative views of some of my more radical proposals, but i would like to ask what would you do to undo the decline of the irish language? how would you attempt to save the native tounge of the people of eirie? A proposal from the late Desmond Fennell: ‘Most of us don’t want to speak Irish, but we like to have Irish in our lives’, writes the provocative Desmond Fennell, in one of his concluding essays in his just published autobiography.* ‘We cherish Irish, the surveys show, as a precious part of our national heritage. We are glad there are Gaelscoileanna, a Ráidió na Gaeltachta and a TG4; that the destinations of buses are shown in Irish as well as English, and to hear that there is a magazine of news and comment in Irish on the internet. We would not like everything in Ireland to be in English only’. But, he warns, there are other examples where a minority language receives much the same treatment, but is fading out of sight like the sun setting on Galway Bay. Poor old Latin. It is a dead language but still taught in thousands of schools. A Latin online daily bulletin gives the world’s news and carries ads. A radio station broadcasts the news weekly in Latin. Latin enthusiasts organise social gatherings. But despite all this, Latin remains a dead language. Is Irish sinking fast the same way too? For a minority language under pressure by a dominant language, and to have a chance of living into the future, it needs to have a sizeable self-renewing community speaking and writing it. Surveys also show that former Gaeltacht districts are shifting from Irish to English. The Irish language has no such dynamic community. Fennell suggests that it is time to declare a language emergency. The most valuable achievement of the Irish language movement to date is that there are now several thousand men and women throughout Ireland who speak and write Irish well. They display as wide a vocabulary as the average educated user of any other European language. ‘They are a national treasure because they embody the Irish language alive today. Indeed because of their wide diversity of circumstance and occupation, they embody it more fully than any Gaeltacht did.’ Echoing the example of the Irish language movement (Conradh na Gaeilge ) of more than a century ago, which successfully brought the language into the lives of thousands of Irish people, Fennell suggests that a similar tactic today may produce even better results. Invite one thousand people, who are already at ease speaking Irish in their daily lives, to form a cohesive group or community. Others could be admitted following an annual examination. They would agree on a name for the community, to speak Irish in their homes, and hold general and regional conventions. They would wear a discreet badge so they could identify themselves to each other and to people generally. The badge would become a mark of positive distinction. The annual entrance examination for new members would become a big national occasion. ‘It would provide a prestigious goal for Gaelcholáistí and for university places in Irish. Apart from holding annual conventions, this body of Irish language perpetuators would carry out its remit simply by living, speaking and writing Irish, and growing annually.’ The writer believes that all this is doable. Such a movement would be the nearest thing possible to replace the dwindling Irish-speaking minority who are at present opting to speak English. ‘I can think of no reason why it should not be done. If it is not done, Irish will be well on the way to becoming a dead language; a language spoken or written in classrooms, on radio and TV, or as the cúplaí focal of politicians and on the designation signs of buses. All this reminding us, symbolically, like the reproving ghost, of the language we could have kept alive.’
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Post by connacht4096 on May 17, 2022 18:43:57 GMT
I know a lot of you seem to have negative views of some of my more radical proposals, but i would like to ask what would you do to undo the decline of the irish language? how would you attempt to save the native tounge of the people of eirie? A proposal from the late Desmond Fennell: ‘Most of us don’t want to speak Irish, but we like to have Irish in our lives’, writes the provocative Desmond Fennell, in one of his concluding essays in his just published autobiography.* ‘We cherish Irish, the surveys show, as a precious part of our national heritage. We are glad there are Gaelscoileanna, a Ráidió na Gaeltachta and a TG4; that the destinations of buses are shown in Irish as well as English, and to hear that there is a magazine of news and comment in Irish on the internet. We would not like everything in Ireland to be in English only’. But, he warns, there are other examples where a minority language receives much the same treatment, but is fading out of sight like the sun setting on Galway Bay. Poor old Latin. It is a dead language but still taught in thousands of schools. A Latin online daily bulletin gives the world’s news and carries ads. A radio station broadcasts the news weekly in Latin. Latin enthusiasts organise social gatherings. But despite all this, Latin remains a dead language. Is Irish sinking fast the same way too? For a minority language under pressure by a dominant language, and to have a chance of living into the future, it needs to have a sizeable self-renewing community speaking and writing it. Surveys also show that former Gaeltacht districts are shifting from Irish to English. The Irish language has no such dynamic community. Fennell suggests that it is time to declare a language emergency. The most valuable achievement of the Irish language movement to date is that there are now several thousand men and women throughout Ireland who speak and write Irish well. They display as wide a vocabulary as the average educated user of any other European language. ‘They are a national treasure because they embody the Irish language alive today. Indeed because of their wide diversity of circumstance and occupation, they embody it more fully than any Gaeltacht did.’ Echoing the example of the Irish language movement (Conradh na Gaeilge ) of more than a century ago, which successfully brought the language into the lives of thousands of Irish people, Fennell suggests that a similar tactic today may produce even better results. Invite one thousand people, who are already at ease speaking Irish in their daily lives, to form a cohesive group or community. Others could be admitted following an annual examination. They would agree on a name for the community, to speak Irish in their homes, and hold general and regional conventions. They would wear a discreet badge so they could identify themselves to each other and to people generally. The badge would become a mark of positive distinction. The annual entrance examination for new members would become a big national occasion. ‘It would provide a prestigious goal for Gaelcholáistí and for university places in Irish. Apart from holding annual conventions, this body of Irish language perpetuators would carry out its remit simply by living, speaking and writing Irish, and growing annually.’ The writer believes that all this is doable. Such a movement would be the nearest thing possible to replace the dwindling Irish-speaking minority who are at present opting to speak English. ‘I can think of no reason why it should not be done. If it is not done, Irish will be well on the way to becoming a dead language; a language spoken or written in classrooms, on radio and TV, or as the cúplaí focal of politicians and on the designation signs of buses. All this reminding us, symbolically, like the reproving ghost, of the language we could have kept alive.’ very interesting, though the part about Latin is false; Latin did not so much die as become something different; the romance languages were born out of latin; French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, and the many minor regional languages (such as Catalonian, and Occitan) are in fact dialects of Latin that kept evolving and mutating, though isolation of each area after the fall of the roman empire meant this process of language change happened separately in different dialects. language change works at a pace so gradual that it is only noticed once the process is complete, it took centuries for the speakers of the romance languages to figure out that what they were speaking was no longer Latin anymore, and Latin had acquired uses besides regular conversation before that happened. indeed, it can be argued that one of the main reasons Latin and Italian are regarded as separate languages in a way old English and modern English are not has to do with no one using a fossilized form of old English for purposes other than regular conversation while modern English developed. classical Latin is indeed dead, but the romance languages that the colloquial forms of Latin turned into are very much alive; having over 900 million native speakers total! those facts put Latin in a very different class then Irish. If this nation reverts to speaking Gaege, I fear not language change centuries after that. but the genetic lineage of the native language of this nation, and the oldest written vernacular language of Europe must not be allowed to die because of colonialism. the only change in Irish I fear is becoming more like that which endangers it, all other evolution is accepted. I accept that someday, even after being saved, Irish will mutate into something that we can understand no more then the authors of Beowulf can understand this paragraph (every living language probably will do that eventually). Latin did exactly that, it was never extinguished, it just gradually drifted; there was no last Latin speaker, instead if you went to Italy in 500 AD people would speak something between Latin and Italian, go in 600 ad and it would be similar but a bit closer to Italian. I suppose language change could be viewed as one of the best practical applications of the Ship of Theseus; the old Greek philosophical puzzle about the nature of gradual change. if Irish is allowed to die, there will be no continuation the way the romance languages derive from Latin; and that must not be allowed to happen. sorry for the tangent; I just like to dispel myths that I find floating around, and i happen to know a decent amount about this topic.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 18, 2022 8:05:54 GMT
A proposal from the late Desmond Fennell: ‘Most of us don’t want to speak Irish, but we like to have Irish in our lives’, writes the provocative Desmond Fennell, in one of his concluding essays in his just published autobiography.* ‘We cherish Irish, the surveys show, as a precious part of our national heritage. We are glad there are Gaelscoileanna, a Ráidió na Gaeltachta and a TG4; that the destinations of buses are shown in Irish as well as English, and to hear that there is a magazine of news and comment in Irish on the internet. We would not like everything in Ireland to be in English only’. But, he warns, there are other examples where a minority language receives much the same treatment, but is fading out of sight like the sun setting on Galway Bay. Poor old Latin. It is a dead language but still taught in thousands of schools. A Latin online daily bulletin gives the world’s news and carries ads. A radio station broadcasts the news weekly in Latin. Latin enthusiasts organise social gatherings. But despite all this, Latin remains a dead language. Is Irish sinking fast the same way too? For a minority language under pressure by a dominant language, and to have a chance of living into the future, it needs to have a sizeable self-renewing community speaking and writing it. Surveys also show that former Gaeltacht districts are shifting from Irish to English. The Irish language has no such dynamic community. Fennell suggests that it is time to declare a language emergency. The most valuable achievement of the Irish language movement to date is that there are now several thousand men and women throughout Ireland who speak and write Irish well. They display as wide a vocabulary as the average educated user of any other European language. ‘They are a national treasure because they embody the Irish language alive today. Indeed because of their wide diversity of circumstance and occupation, they embody it more fully than any Gaeltacht did.’ Echoing the example of the Irish language movement (Conradh na Gaeilge ) of more than a century ago, which successfully brought the language into the lives of thousands of Irish people, Fennell suggests that a similar tactic today may produce even better results. Invite one thousand people, who are already at ease speaking Irish in their daily lives, to form a cohesive group or community. Others could be admitted following an annual examination. They would agree on a name for the community, to speak Irish in their homes, and hold general and regional conventions. They would wear a discreet badge so they could identify themselves to each other and to people generally. The badge would become a mark of positive distinction. The annual entrance examination for new members would become a big national occasion. ‘It would provide a prestigious goal for Gaelcholáistí and for university places in Irish. Apart from holding annual conventions, this body of Irish language perpetuators would carry out its remit simply by living, speaking and writing Irish, and growing annually.’ The writer believes that all this is doable. Such a movement would be the nearest thing possible to replace the dwindling Irish-speaking minority who are at present opting to speak English. ‘I can think of no reason why it should not be done. If it is not done, Irish will be well on the way to becoming a dead language; a language spoken or written in classrooms, on radio and TV, or as the cúplaí focal of politicians and on the designation signs of buses. All this reminding us, symbolically, like the reproving ghost, of the language we could have kept alive.’ very interesting, though the part about Latin is false; Latin did not so much die as become something different; the romance languages were born out of latin; French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, and the many minor regional languages (such as Catalonian, and Occitan) are in fact dialects of Latin that kept evolving and mutating, though isolation of each area after the fall of the roman empire meant this process of language change happened separately in different dialects. language change works at a pace so gradual that it is only noticed once the process is complete, it took centuries for the speakers of the romance languages to figure out that what they were speaking was no longer Latin anymore, and Latin had acquired uses besides regular conversation before that happened. indeed, it can be argued that one of the main reasons Latin and Italian are regarded as separate languages in a way old English and modern English are not has to do with no one using a fossilized form of old English for purposes other than regular conversation while modern English developed. classical Latin is indeed dead, but the romance languages that the colloquial forms of Latin turned into are very much alive; having over 900 million native speakers total! those facts put Latin in a very different class then Irish. If this nation reverts to speaking Gaege, I fear not language change centuries after that. but the genetic lineage of the native language of this nation, and the oldest written vernacular language of Europe must not be allowed to die because of colonialism. the only change in Irish I fear is becoming more like that which endangers it, all other evolution is accepted. I accept that someday, even after being saved, Irish will mutate into something that we can understand no more then the authors of Beowulf can understand this paragraph (every living language probably will do that eventually). Latin did exactly that, it was never extinguished, it just gradually drifted; there was no last Latin speaker, instead if you went to Italy in 500 AD people would speak something between Latin and Italian, go in 600 ad and it would be similar but a bit closer to Italian. I suppose language change could be viewed as one of the best practical applications of the Ship of Theseus; the old Greek philosophical puzzle about the nature of gradual change. if Irish is allowed to die, there will be no continuation the way the romance languages derive from Latin; and that must not be allowed to happen. sorry for the tangent; I just like to dispel myths that I find floating around, and i happen to know a decent amount about this topic. Don't apologize, Connacht, that was an excellent post.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 18, 2022 8:25:28 GMT
Trying to make Irish a part of your everyday life is a huge commitment. Yes, everybody could do it if they REALLY wanted, but you'd have to REALLY want it. I mean, my primary and secondary schooling was in Gaelscoileanna but I'm still not really fluent. For a period of about three or four years, a few years ago, I made an almighty effort to improve my Irish, reading mostly Irish books, writing my diary in Irish, consuming a lot of Irish-language media. It definitely gave my Irish a boost, but it's very difficult to maintain and it requires a lot of time and energy. You have to sacrifice other things to it. At one point I announced that I was going to write all my work emails bilingually. There was a surprisingly favourable reception to this, and I kept it up for a while, but I gave up eventually. It took an awful lot of extra time. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that Irish language revivalism can't be one of my main focuses. Like all of us here, I imagine, I have a lot of different ideals clamouring for attention and the Irish language is just one of them. I think Fennell's idea of intentional, artificial communities that would devote themselves to speaking Irish is an excellent one. This article I wrote for the Burkean wasn't entirely tongue-in-cheek. When it comes to reviving/preserving Irish I think an "all or nothing" mentality is to be avoided. And just keeping it alive is a victory in itself, so that perhaps another generation can actually accomplish a real revival.
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Post by Stephen on May 18, 2022 12:30:17 GMT
Trying to make Irish a part of your everyday life is a huge commitment. Yes, everybody could do it if they REALLY wanted, but you'd have to REALLY want it. I mean, my primary and secondary schooling was in Gaelscoileanna but I'm still not really fluent. For a period of about three or four years I made an almighty effort to improve my Irish, reading mostly Irish books, writing my diary in Irish, consuming a lot of Irish-language media. It definitely gave my Irish a boost, but it's very difficult to maintain and it requires a lot of time and energy. At one point I announced that I was going to write all my work emails bilingually. There was a surprisingly favourable reception to this, and I kept it up for a while, but I gave up eventually. It took an awful lot of extra time. I've come to the reluctant conclusion that Irish language revivalism can't be one of my main focuses. Like all of us here, I imagine, I have a lot of different ideals clamouring for attention and the Irish language is just one of them. I think Fennell's idea of intentional, artificial communities that would devote themselves to speaking Irish is an excellent one. This article I wrote for the Burkean wasn't entirely tongue-in-cheek. When it comes to reviving/preserving Irish I think an "all or nothing" mentality is to be avoided. And just keeping it alive is a victory in itself, so that perhaps another generation can actually accomplish a real revival. totally agree
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Post by connacht4096 on May 18, 2022 16:38:50 GMT
Use it. I know this is a radical proposal, but there you go. Dia duit. Connacht4096 niamh is ainm dom. ní is troll mise.
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Post by cato on May 18, 2022 21:30:30 GMT
Most prominent Irish speakers are now firmly progressive ideologically. As are many catholics, with the enthusiastic blessing of the current papacy.
If you could magically turn Ireland into a Gaelic speaking country overnight it would still be a progressive nirvana. It may be an intrinsically good thing to revive the native language but the bulk of our people reject much of the faith and cultural values of that vanished Gaelic Civilisation.
Irish Conservativism is in an even more dire state than the language.
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Post by connacht4096 on May 18, 2022 22:06:34 GMT
Most prominent Irish speakers are now firmly progressive ideologically. As are many catholics, with the enthusiastic blessing of the current papacy. If you could magically turn Ireland into a Gaelic speaking country overnight it would still be a progressive nirvana. It may be an intrinsically good thing to revive the native language but the bulk of our people reject much of the faith and cultural values of that vanished Gaelic Civilisation. Irish Conservativism is in am even more dire state than the language. I am sorry you feal that way; and I might even agree with some of what you have to say on that (I wouldn't know one way or another); but that is kind of tangential to my point here probably worthy of a discussion in another thread though; the Irish language must be preserved, I will not allow this nation to loose its native language to colonization; any extreme methods advocated are because i am unconvinced that other methods work; when it comes to saving the Irish language I have little problem with going overboard on it; because if we fail to do enough, the language may be lost forever; therefore it should be saved at all costs; I should also add that even if things were not good if the change of making this nation Irish speaking were done without any other changes, things would still be better even if not good.
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