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Post by cato on May 18, 2022 22:55:25 GMT
Most prominent Irish speakers are now firmly progressive ideologically. As are many catholics, with the enthusiastic blessing of the current papacy. If you could magically turn Ireland into a Gaelic speaking country overnight it would still be a progressive nirvana. It may be an intrinsically good thing to revive the native language but the bulk of our people reject much of the faith and cultural values of that vanished Gaelic Civilisation. Irish Conservativism is in am even more dire state than the language. I am sorry you feal that way; and I might even agree with some of what you have to say on that (I wouldn't know one way or another); but that is kind of tangential to my point here probably worthy of a discussion in another thread though; the Irish language must be preserved, I will not allow this nation to loose its native language to colonization; any extreme methods advocated are because i am unconvinced that other methods work; when it comes to saving the Irish language I have little problem with going overboard on it; because if we fail to do enough, the language may be lost forever; therefore it should be saved at all costs; I should also add that even if things were not good if the change of making this nation Irish speaking were done without any other changes, things would still be better even if not good. It would a cold comfort to me if we swapped a progressive multicultural English speaking Ireland for an Irish speaking version of the same. The progressive rot has deeply infected the language movement which traditionally was seen as a prophylactic against Anglo Saxon modernity along with Catholicism,economic nationalism and a desire to regain the fourth Green field. All of those features of the state save the last have been abandoned by the new Irish nation. Potentially Irish could become part of a traditional renewal but let's not pretend it's a magic solution.
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Post by connacht4096 on May 19, 2022 3:21:05 GMT
I am sorry you feal that way; and I might even agree with some of what you have to say on that (I wouldn't know one way or another); but that is kind of tangential to my point here probably worthy of a discussion in another thread though; the Irish language must be preserved, I will not allow this nation to loose its native language to colonization; any extreme methods advocated are because i am unconvinced that other methods work; when it comes to saving the Irish language I have little problem with going overboard on it; because if we fail to do enough, the language may be lost forever; therefore it should be saved at all costs; I should also add that even if things were not good if the change of making this nation Irish speaking were done without any other changes, things would still be better even if not good. It would a cold comfort to me if we swapped a progressive multicultural English speaking Ireland for an Irish speaking version of the same. The progressive rot has deeply infected the language movement which traditionally was seen as a prophylactic against Anglo Saxon modernity along with Catholicism,economic nationalism and a desire to regain the fourth Green field. All of those features of the state save the last have been abandoned by the new Irish nation. Potentially Irish could become part of a traditional renewal but let's not pretend it's a magic solution. I don't think anyone has said that it is a magic solution; there are quite a few things that need fixing; but ireland not speaking its native language is one of them; things can be an improvement without either being good in a non relative sense; the other problems should also be fixed, but this one happens to be the topic of this thread
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Post by cato on May 19, 2022 8:29:13 GMT
I don't think anyone has said that it is a magic solution; there are quite a few things that need fixing; but ireland not speaking its native language is one of them; things can be an improvement without either being good in a non relative sense; the other problems should also be fixed, but this one happens to be the topic of this thread [/quote]
I apologise if I didn't make myself clear but I see the threat to our nation as part of a much bigger Civilisational crisis that is taking place all over the former Christendom lands. Progressive ideologically is largely unchallenged and is culturally dominant. The Irish language was seen as a uniquely Conservative tool to protect our culture. That doesn't hold anymore. Many conservatives don't get that just like many conservatives didn't get the real decline of Catholicism until it was blindingly obvious.
Reviving a culture will involve linguistic revival but its also bigger than that. I applaud your passion.
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Post by connacht4096 on May 19, 2022 23:16:01 GMT
gottcha, and understood; topics besides the irish language are perfectly fine, just that topic is the focus of this thread
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Post by Maolsheachlann on May 20, 2022 9:34:40 GMT
"I will not allow this nation to loose its native language to colonization".
Thank God for that!
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Post by connacht4096 on May 20, 2022 16:01:06 GMT
"I will not allow this nation to loose its native language to colonization". Thank God for that! and also any others who express or act on the same sentiment
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Post by connacht4096 on May 21, 2022 19:17:51 GMT
I have actually done a small part in working to save the language by using it recently myself; though I admit it is somewhat limited.
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Post by connacht4096 on May 22, 2022 3:30:19 GMT
I may or may not be after mentioning that I have relatives from the Irish diaspora (use of word for word translation of Irish language idiom is deliberate); and I actually helped an Irish American I am related to find an online course in the Irish language; every little bit is a small amount
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Post by connacht4096 on Jun 1, 2022 0:54:50 GMT
thanks so far for the responses to these remarks
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 1, 2022 8:26:17 GMT
Sometimes I think we just have to accept that the era of ethno-states is over. I find it hard to see any pattern in the future except minor languages giving way to major languages. Would it be surprising if the whole European continent speaks English, German, Spanish, French and Italian in a few centuries, and that the other national languages are relegated to what Irish is now?
The Irish people don't really seem to care about the preservation of their national heritage. Between the achievement of independence and our accession to the EEC, and even more the advent of mass immigration, the Irish had a golden opportunity to revive their culture. They didn't. They didn't even try, for the most part. And they still don't seem to care. I'm increasingly unwilling to demoralize myself fretting about something that's completely irrelevant to the vast majority of Irish people.
The Irish language will survive as a sub-culture. Maybe that's enough. It could have been worse.
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Post by kj on Jun 1, 2022 8:48:35 GMT
The Irish people don't really seem to care about the preservation of their national heritage. Between the achievement of independence and our accession to the EEC, and even more the advent of mass immigration, the Irish had a golden opportunity to revive their culture. They didn't. They didn't even try, for the most part. And they still don't seem to care. I'm increasingly unwilling to demoralize myself fretting about something that's completely irrelevant to the vast majority of Irish people. This is more and more my attitude, and is also why lately I've avoided Irish media and felt much the better for it. One consequent question might be what is it that Irish people do actually care about? If it's nothing more than the usual money and property, then why trouble oneself at all about Ireland and its fate?
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Post by Antaine on Jun 1, 2022 20:50:34 GMT
I know this isn't a ground-breaking take, but it is fascinating that what the British couldn't take from us in centuries, we basically willingly gave up in one. In a terribly ironic way, it seems independence was the worst thing to ever happen to us. Maybe too many of the people who actually cared died fighting for it, and now most of what's left are the passives trying to just get by.
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Post by connacht4096 on Jun 2, 2022 3:38:10 GMT
I am fishing for ideas on how to save the Irish Language; In my opinion we should use the lest harsh method possible; but as harsh of a method as nessecary to save our ancient tongue; I consider the survival of the Irish Language to be as important as a matter of life and death; that is why I am trying to see who has ideas on what to do for it; ní is troll mise.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jun 2, 2022 9:20:28 GMT
I am fishing for ideas on how to save the Irish Language; In my opinion we should use the lest harsh method possible; but as harsh of a method as nessecary to save our ancient tongue; I consider the survival of the Irish Language to be as important as a matter of life and death; that is why I am trying to see who has ideas on what to do for it; ní is troll mise. Aside from the ethical problems of "harsh" methods, there's also the pragmatic problem that such methods could never actually be applied. People wouldn't stand for it. If people won't voluntarily speak the language, do you really think they can be coerced or pressured into doing so? There would be a massive backlash. This isn't a productive way to spend your mental energies, in my view. Besides, the actual survival of Irish is fairly secure, in my view. In the fascinating book Guthanna in Éag/Voices Silenced by James McCloskey, the author puts forward the interesting claim that, although ninety per cent of languages are in danger of extinction today, Irish is not actually one of them. It has the support of a State, which is crucial to the survival of a language.
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Post by connacht4096 on Jun 2, 2022 12:05:09 GMT
I am fishing for ideas on how to save the Irish Language; In my opinion we should use the lest harsh method possible; but as harsh of a method as nessecary to save our ancient tongue; I consider the survival of the Irish Language to be as important as a matter of life and death; that is why I am trying to see who has ideas on what to do for it; ní is troll mise. Aside from the ethical problems of "harsh" methods, there's also the pragmatic problem that such methods could never actually be applied. People wouldn't stand for it. If people won't voluntarily speak the language, do you really think they can be coerced or pressured into doing so? There would be a massive backlash. This isn't a productive way to spend your mental energies, in my view. Besides, the actual survival of Irish is fairly secure, in my view. In the fascinating book Guthanna in Éag/Voices Silenced by James McCloskey, the author puts forward the interesting claim that, although ninety per cent of languages are in decline today, Irish is not actually one of them. It has the support of a State, which is crucial to the survival of a language. very good to hear; I don't want to engage in harsh measures; so I am trying to satisfy myself that they are not necessary; there are things I would rather not do, but will if convinced there is no other way to accomplish the same result; I think I will try to find a copy of that book; thanks again; still anyone's ideas are welcome on this; thank you so much; do todhchaí Gaeilge
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