eala
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Post by eala on Mar 6, 2023 22:59:47 GMT
Hello all., Irish Catholicism has been untenable for me personally, as a core feature of Irish identity for a long time. Christianity yes to some degree, though I don't have a home with it and I do a deep reading of the stories in the Northrop Frye vein.
Irish language not Catholicism is at the core of any conservative identity for me.
Are there any conservative public figures or writers you know of in this mould?
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Post by cato on Mar 7, 2023 12:28:39 GMT
Irish culture is caught up with Christianity since the time of St Patrick and the whole pagan mythology was preserved in literary form by Christian monks and scribes. The Irish language itself has many religious inspired terms.
I think technically you could have individuals having an atheistic Irish identity but I doubt if it works for the majority or could be termed an authentic traditional culture .
I think Conor Cruise O Brien was fairly openly agnostic before it became socially acceptable.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 7, 2023 15:18:41 GMT
Hello all., Irish Catholicism has been untenable for me personally, as a core feature of Irish identity for a long time. Christianity yes to some degree, though I don't have a home with it and I do a deep reading of the stories in the Northrop Frye vein. Irish language not Catholicism is at the core of any conservative identity for me. Are there any conservative public figures or writers you know of in this mould? None spring to mind. I have certainly read of patriots such as Seán Lemass and Tom Barry who were atheist, or agnostic; but neither were language enthusiasts. Tom Clarke seems to have been the least religious of the 1916 leaders, but again, not a language enthusiast. I'm sure they exist, I just can't think of any. Even Mairtín Ó Cadhain was a lot more religious than is claimed, from what I've read.
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Post by hilary on Mar 7, 2023 18:14:46 GMT
D'fhreastail mé ar cúrsa Gaeilge le gairid agus bím ag eisteacht le Raidio na Gaeltacht sa charr ó shin. Is aoibhinn liom na frásaí a úsáideann siad - mar shampla "go ndéana Dia grásta air" agus tá na socruithe sochraide an siúmiúil freisin, dar liom. Ní thuigim gach rud ach tá sé i bhfad níos fearr ná RTE 1 nó Newstalk (ní feidir liom é sin a rá). Chuala mé faoi Teanglann.ie agus is rud iontach é sin freisin.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 7, 2023 18:55:18 GMT
D'fhreastail mé ar cúrsa Gaeilge le gairid agus bím ag eisteacht le Raidio na Gaeltacht sa charr ó shin. Is aoibhinn liom na frásaí a úsáideann siad - mar shampla "go ndéana Dia grásta air" agus tá na socruithe sochraide an siúmiúil freisin, dar liom. Ní thuigim gach rud ach tá sé i bhfad níos fearr ná RTE 1 nó Newstalk (ní feidir liom é sin a rá). Chuala mé faoi Teanglann.ie agus is rud iontach é sin freisin. Maith thú, beir bua! Tá teanglann ar feabhas.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 7, 2023 18:57:24 GMT
Irish culture is caught up with Christianity since the time of St Patrick and the whole pagan mythology was preserved in literary form by Christian monks and scribes. The Irish language itself has many religious inspired terms. I think technically you could have individuals having an atheistic Irish identity but I doubt if it works for the majority or could be termed an authentic traditional culture . I think Conor Cruise O Brien was fairly openly agnostic before it became socially acceptable.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 7, 2023 19:15:19 GMT
Christianity, yes, it has been, as it has been in western culture broadly. As I say I'm a fan of people like Northrop Frye. If people don't know his work, and you are interested in biblical typology and pattern thinking can I commend it to them. heritage.utoronto.ca/frye/full-lecturesCatholicism was central to the culture I grew up in the 80s, and formed part of my life all the way up, but I can't take it seriously given its reaction to all that happened in the 80s and 90s. Derek Scally makes the same points in a balanced and fair way www.rte.ie/culture/2021/0403/1206984-the-best-catholics-in-the-world-by-derek-scally-read-an-extract/I don't know even if agnostic would be the right word for my view, I'm quite aware that I am within the Christian tradition, and I value it, and I have done a deep dive in to it over the course of my life. My question really I suppose is conservativism with regards those other aspects of Gaelic culture in Ireland without Catholicism. Of course it has shaped that culture, but that culture was also in place approximately a thousand years on the island before the arrival of Christianity. I would also question how Catholic the country was before the coming of the Normans, maybe even up until the devotional revolution in the c19th . For much of the period 'Catholicism' wasn't like Catholicism on the continent it wasn't urban or centered around priests. The monastic, perigrinatio pattern etc is more akin to the christianity of the north african desert fathers.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 7, 2023 19:17:16 GMT
Hello all., Irish Catholicism has been untenable for me personally, as a core feature of Irish identity for a long time. Christianity yes to some degree, though I don't have a home with it and I do a deep reading of the stories in the Northrop Frye vein. Irish language not Catholicism is at the core of any conservative identity for me. Are there any conservative public figures or writers you know of in this mould? None spring to mind. I have certainly read of patriots such as Seán Lemass and Tom Barry who were atheist, or agnostic; but neither were language enthusiasts. Tom Clarke seems to have been the least religious of the 1916 leaders, but again, not a language enthusiast. I'm sure they exist, I just can't think of any. Even Mairtín Ó Cadhain was a lot more religious than is claimed, from what I've read.
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eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 7, 2023 19:33:24 GMT
None spring to mind. I have certainly read of patriots such as Seán Lemass and Tom Barry who were atheist, or agnostic; but neither were language enthusiasts. Tom Clarke seems to have been the least religious of the 1916 leaders, but again, not a language enthusiast. I'm sure they exist, I just can't think of any. Even Mairtín Ó Cadhain was a lot more religious than is claimed, from what I've read. Depends what we mean by religious, I guess. It's a tricky word. Even if we call ourselves post-catholic or similar Catholicism will of course continue to structure much of our thinking. James Joyce is a perfect example. Something like Frye's reading of the Bible fits with me but I don't know within which tradition to pursue that if at all in Ireland. Maybe I'm looking for some resolution between Gaelic and Conservative on the one hand, and religion on the other. Those who are language enthusiasts and non-religious sometimes lean towards religious substitutes like Marxism. Something which holds little appeal. Andrew Doyle's (aka Titiana McGraw) recent book 'the New Puritans' is very good on this www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JZ9eGyp65U
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 8, 2023 0:24:35 GMT
I can certainly identify with your situation. I was a conservative before I was a Christian. I remember attending my aunt's funeral in a rural church, basking in the sense of tradition and community, but determined I wasn't going to accept Catholicism until and unless I was convinced it was literally true.
I read Fearful Symmetry by Northrop Frye many years ago. I must admit I found it tough going!
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Post by Séamus on Mar 8, 2023 12:05:01 GMT
Christianity, yes, it has been, as it has been in western culture broadly. As I say I'm a fan of people like Northrop Frye. If people don't know his work, and you are interested in biblical typology and pattern thinking can I commend it to them. heritage.utoronto.ca/frye/full-lecturesCatholicism was central to the culture I grew up in the 80s, and formed part of my life all the way up, but I can't take it seriously given its reaction to all that happened in the 80s and 90s. Derek Scally makes the same points in a balanced and fair way www.rte.ie/culture/2021/0403/1206984-the-best-catholics-in-the-world-by-derek-scally-read-an-extract/I don't know even if agnostic would be the right word for my view, I'm quite aware that I am within the Christian tradition, and I value it, and I have done a deep dive in to it over the course of my life. My question really I suppose is conservativism with regards those other aspects of Gaelic culture in Ireland without Catholicism. Of course it has shaped that culture, but that culture was also in place approximately a thousand years on the island before the arrival of Christianity. I would also question how Catholic the country was before the coming of the Normans, maybe even up until the devotional revolution in the c19th . For much of the period 'Catholicism' wasn't like Catholicism on the continent it wasn't urban or centered around priests. The monastic, perigrinatio pattern etc is more akin to the christianity of the north african desert fathers. "There is much we do not know about these Irish exiles. Their clay and wattle buildings have long since disappeared and even their most precious books have perished. But what they knew- the Bible and the literatures of Greece, Rome and Ireland- we know, because they passed these things on to us. The Hebrew Bible would have [after the fall of the Roman Empire] survived without them [Irish monastics] transmitted to our times by scattered communities of Jews. The Greek Bible,the Greek commentaries,and much of the literatures of ancient Greece were well preserved at Byzantium,and might be available to us somewhere- if we had the interest to seek them out. But Latin literature would almost surely have been lost without the Irish,and illiterate Europe would hardly have developed it's great national literatures without the example of the Irish ,the first national literature to be written down" How the Irish Saved Civilization, Thomas Cahill 1995 "The peacock symbolised the incorruptibility of Christ because, again according belief codified by Isidore, it's flesh is so hard that it does not putrefy. St Augustine of Hippo put this belief to the test...After thirty days he found there was no bad smell" 'The Book of Kells' (1997) Bernard Meehan. Peacocks were, perhaps before all else something that Celtic scribes and decorators ran with. As distinctive as the Celtic Church was, there's certainly evidence of union with the Roman tradition also. The former book makes much mention of philosophical connection with Augustine of Hippo, although African, definitely a Father of the Western Church.
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eala
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Post by eala on Mar 8, 2023 13:18:26 GMT
I can certainly identify with your situation. I was a conservative before I was a Christian. I remember attending my aunt's funeral in a rural church, basking in the sense of tradition and community, but determined I wasn't going to accept Catholicism until and unless I was convinced it was literally true. I read Fearful Symmetry by Northrop Frye many years ago. I must admit I found it tough going! Ah, so you were new to it. I had it from as far back as I remember, and left it when I was about 13. I don't have an issue with the literally true part, it's isn't, and never will be — neither is poetry or myth, which isn't the same as saying it is false or not worthwhile etc. My problem is the hypocrisy with regards the abuse scandals. You may enjoy Frye's 'the Great Code' better than fearful symmetry
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 8, 2023 13:23:42 GMT
Ah, so you were new to it. I had it from as far back as I remember, and left it when I was about 13. I don't have an issue with the literally true part, it's isn't, and never will be — neither is poetry or myth, which isn't the same as saying it is false or not worthwhile etc. My problem is the hypocrisy with regards the abuse scandals.
You may enjoy Frye's 'the Great Code' better than fearful symmetry.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 8, 2023 13:38:46 GMT
Ah, so you were new to it. I had it from as far back as I remember, and left it when I was about 13. I don't have an issue with the literally true part, it's isn't, and never will be — neither is poetry or myth, which isn't the same as saying it is false or not worthwhile etc. My problem is the hypocrisy with regards the abuse scandals. You may enjoy Frye's 'the Great Code' better than fearful symmetry. I do think religion makes literal truth claims in the way poetry and myth doesn't. But I accept that people might still find value in it even if they don't accept that literal truth. I was raised Catholic, like most people in Ireland until recently. But I think I was a natural agnostic up to my thirties, even as a little kid.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Mar 8, 2023 13:44:26 GMT
Christianity, yes, it has been, as it has been in western culture broadly. As I say I'm a fan of people like Northrop Frye. If people don't know his work, and you are interested in biblical typology and pattern thinking can I commend it to them. heritage.utoronto.ca/frye/full-lecturesCatholicism was central to the culture I grew up in the 80s, and formed part of my life all the way up, but I can't take it seriously given its reaction to all that happened in the 80s and 90s. Derek Scally makes the same points in a balanced and fair way www.rte.ie/culture/2021/0403/1206984-the-best-catholics-in-the-world-by-derek-scally-read-an-extract/I don't know even if agnostic would be the right word for my view, I'm quite aware that I am within the Christian tradition, and I value it, and I have done a deep dive in to it over the course of my life. My question really I suppose is conservativism with regards those other aspects of Gaelic culture in Ireland without Catholicism. Of course it has shaped that culture, but that culture was also in place approximately a thousand years on the island before the arrival of Christianity. I would also question how Catholic the country was before the coming of the Normans, maybe even up until the devotional revolution in the c19th . For much of the period 'Catholicism' wasn't like Catholicism on the continent it wasn't urban or centered around priests. The monastic, perigrinatio pattern etc is more akin to the christianity of the north african desert fathers. "There is much we do not know about these Irish exiles. Their clay and wattle buildings have long since disappeared and even their most precious books have perished. But what they knew- the Bible and the literatures of Greece, Rome and Ireland- we know, because they passed these things on to us. The Hebrew Bible would have [after the fall of the Roman Empire] survived without them [Irish monastics] transmitted to our times by scattered communities of Jews. The Greek Bible,the Greek commentaries,and much of the literatures of ancient Greece were well preserved at Byzantium,and might be available to us somewhere- if we had the interest to seek them out. But Latin literature would almost surely have been lost without the Irish,and illiterate Europe would hardly have developed it's great national literatures without the example of the Irish ,the first national literature to be written down" How the Irish Saved Civilization, Thomas Cahill 1995 "The peacock symbolised the incorruptibility of Christ because, again according belief codified by Isidore, it's flesh is so hard that it does not putrefy. St Augustine of Hippo put this belief to the test...After thirty days he found there was no bad smell" 'The Book of Kells' (1997) Bernard Meehan. Peacocks were, perhaps before all else something that Celtic scribes and decorators ran with. As distinctive as the Celtic Church was, there's certainly evidence of union with the Roman tradition also. The former book makes much mention of philosophical connection with Augustine of Hippo, although African, definitely a Father of the Western Church. Plenty of church fathers were north african Clement, Origien, Tertullian, and re monasticism St Anthony of course. Cahill seemed to view prechristian Ireland as particularly vile and benighted. And I found myself asking whose eyes he was looking at his ancestors through. Some wit quipped that the Irish did indeed save civillisation but they saved the wrong one. Not as simple as that of course, the destruction of latin literature would have been a disaster, and the monks wrote down of the native mythologies. But there is some truth to that wit's point. Roman catholicism looks to ... Rome, Christianity looks to the middle east. With Heaney or Ó Riordáin there is a conservative argument for excavating in to deeper time and below the relatively more recent Catholic layer.
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