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Post by Mary on Apr 21, 2023 22:43:19 GMT
I think absolutely the rape, torture and sale of children has led to the fall of the Irish church, but more especially it has been th cover up. And positively I think the mountain of lies affects the truth claims of Catholicism for many of us; I, and many of our generation, can't see that the church is a trustworthy institution — if the church cannot tell the truth, and actively tells lies about its recent history I can't see that they are credible with regards subtle metaphysical claims. With regards to a priest out in the early hours talking to teenage boys... might be humanism, but I wouldn't be sure, and I wouldn't want my young lad alone with him. That sounds to me like a "holier than thou" attitude. I think it's a convenient excuse too to postpone serious reflection. You say that the "mountain of lies affects the truth claims of Catholicism for many of us", mentioning Tuam, for example. If you are interested in finding out the truth about that you should read Brian Nugent's book "@tuam Babies - a critical look at the Tuam Children's Home scandal" or the chapter on Tuam in the Final Report of the Commission of investigation into Mother and Baby Homes. You mentioned in an earlier post that divorce is or was warranted for battered wives. Provision used to be made for women (financial/custody of children etc) through separation agreements or judicial separations without divorce. I'm not sure remarriage is a big issue for most battered wives - more likely it gives the abuser the opportunity to do the same to another woman. I don't think rates of domestic abuse have decreased with the introduction of divorce.
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 22, 2023 15:50:33 GMT
I think absolutely the rape, torture and sale of children has led to the fall of the Irish church, but more especially it has been th cover up. And positively I think the mountain of lies affects the truth claims of Catholicism for many of us; I, and many of our generation, can't see that the church is a trustworthy institution — if the church cannot tell the truth, and actively tells lies about its recent history I can't see that they are credible with regards subtle metaphysical claims. With regards to a priest out in the early hours talking to teenage boys... might be humanism, but I wouldn't be sure, and I wouldn't want my young lad alone with him. That sounds to me like a "holier than thou" attitude. I think it's a convenient excuse too to postpone serious reflection. You say that the "mountain of lies affects the truth claims of Catholicism for many of us", mentioning Tuam, for example. If you are interested in finding out the truth about that you should read Brian Nugent's book "@tuam Babies - a critical look at the Tuam Children's Home scandal" or the chapter on Tuam in the Final Report of the Commission of investigation into Mother and Baby Homes. You mentioned in an earlier post that divorce is or was warranted for battered wives. Provision used to be made for women (financial/custody of children etc) through separation agreements or judicial separations without divorce. I'm not sure remarriage is a big issue for most battered wives - more likely it gives the abuser the opportunity to do the same to another woman. I don't think rates of domestic abuse have decreased with the introduction of divorce. Let's have the 'serious reflection'. There's been a dearth of it. You don't think it's fair to say there's been a mountain of lies from the church with regards the litany of abuse? How is holding the church to account on rape and torture 'holier than thou' exactly? Re domestic violence, remarriage might or mightn't be an issue later, there are degrees of separation, I do know that were I in such a situation I'd first want to extricate myself and then have the option to completely severe ties.
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 22, 2023 16:31:56 GMT
It's a bit hard to compare our era with the Pius IX/Sacred Heart/Immaculate Conception/papal infallibility epoch. Church-going Catholics generally obeyed John XXIII, Paul VI,in particular, and John Paul II and their many changes in practice and attitude fairly blindly. That won't happen now with either the intensely secular or the intensely religious. It goes beyond Benedict XVI stating that a traditional mass was never banned, decades after it was essentially banned- we see situations like an American nun who was dismissed from her institute under the direction John Paul's Rome for her work with Catholic homosexuals now given an award by Francis' Rome... for her work among Catholic homosexuals. History doesn't repeat but it rhymes etc — a comparison of any two eras won't map on to each other perfectly. I'm curious a. what lead to the fall there b. what, if any, are the parallels with what's happening here. To CS Lewis' point that when you stop believing in God you believe not in nothing but in anything — Canada is fast becoming woke central, and I wonder if this isn't what's coming down the line here in Ireland as the church falls away. We are currently seeing a vocations crisis and ageing clergy, and while this is part of a broader western trend, it is my view that it will only accelerate to the extent the church is unwilling or unable to make a full confession. Maybe Rome is hoping the problem will die with the ageing clergy. Given the paucity of Irish vocations, will Irish born clergy be in a minority in the next generation. How might a predominantly foreign clergy change Catholicism in Ireland I don't know, the devil is in the detail, so to speak, but a renaissance seems improbable at present.
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Post by hilary on Apr 22, 2023 22:28:46 GMT
You don't think it's fair to say there's been a mountain of lies from the church with regards the litany of abuse? How is holding the church to account on rape and torture 'holier than thou' exactly? Re domestic violence, remarriage might or mightn't be an issue later, there are degrees of separation, I do know that were I in such a situation I'd first want to extricate myself and then have the option to completely severe ties. When you say "the church" should be held to account do you know who you mean? I don't see how I as a member of the church could be held to account for rape and torture when I never saw any, thank God. "The church" didn't commit rape and torture, but individuals, who were not acting according to the teaching of the Church, apparently did (although not to the extent you think, I'd say). It didn't only happen in the Church and I know obviously it shouldn't have happened there, but as has already been pointed out before, paedophiles and others who would abuse are attracted to places where children and other vulnerable people are, and they are very devious. It's also not as simple as you seem to think to "hold people to account", and it's not necessarily always the priority, nor should it be. I could imagine an abused person not wanting to have anything to do with holding the abuser to account, and that is something that would have to be respected. Forcing them to be involved in a court case could compound their trauma and sense of helplessness. Many victims and their families wouldn't go to the Guards. Some victims no doubt forgive their abuser and want to forget - "blessed are the merciful for they shall have mercy shown to them". There's plenty of sinister stuff going on at the moment which should be our concern - a new UN report which advocates for decriminalising sex with minors, for example. As you know there is civil divorce so if people want to do that now they can. It's very complex though especially for any children involved. Catholic teaching on marriage is the best.
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 11:19:32 GMT
You don't think it's fair to say there's been a mountain of lies from the church with regards the litany of abuse? How is holding the church to account on rape and torture 'holier than thou' exactly? Re domestic violence, remarriage might or mightn't be an issue later, there are degrees of separation, I do know that were I in such a situation I'd first want to extricate myself and then have the option to completely severe ties. When you say "the church" should be held to account do you know who you mean? I don't see how I as a member of the church could be held to account for rape and torture when I never saw any, thank God. "The church" didn't commit rape and torture, but individuals, who were not acting according to the teaching of the Church, apparently did (although not to the extent you think, I'd say). It didn't only happen in the Church and I know obviously it shouldn't have happened there, but as has already been pointed out before, paedophiles and others who would abuse are attracted to places where children and other vulnerable people are, and they are very devious. It's also not as simple as you seem to think to "hold people to account", and it's not necessarily always the priority, nor should it be. I could imagine an abused person not wanting to have anything to do with holding the abuser to account, and that is something that would have to be respected. Forcing them to be involved in a court case could compound their trauma and sense of helplessness. Many victims and their families wouldn't go to the Guards. Some victims no doubt forgive their abuser and want to forget - "blessed are the merciful for they shall have mercy shown to them". There's plenty of sinister stuff going on at the moment which should be our concern - a new UN report which advocates for decriminalising sex with minors, for example. As you know there is civil divorce so if people want to do that now they can. It's very complex though especially for any children involved. Catholic teaching on marriage is the best.
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 11:21:33 GMT
sounds like whataboutism, and no true scotsman...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 23, 2023 12:34:24 GMT
sounds like whataboutism, and no true scotsman... I've never really seen the fallacy in whataboutism. And I don't think it's a "no true Scotsman" fallacy because Hilary isn't saying that no true Catholic was involved, she's saying only a few were. Admittedly some in senior positions.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 23, 2023 12:37:42 GMT
Regarding whataboutism... Say if an American during the Cold War had been taken to task for McCarthyism and segregation, in a debate with a supporter of the USSR, and he compared those evils with the far worse evils of life in the USSR. Would that have been "whataboutism"? It seems highly relevant.
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 17:22:42 GMT
When you say "the church" should be held to account do you know who you mean? I don't see how I as a member of the church could be held to account for rape and torture when I never saw any, thank God. "The church" didn't commit rape and torture, but individuals, who were not acting according to the teaching of the Church, apparently did (although not to the extent you think, I'd say). It didn't only happen in the Church and I know obviously it shouldn't have happened there, but as has already been pointed out before, paedophiles and others who would abuse are attracted to places where children and other vulnerable people are, and they are very devious. It's also not as simple as you seem to think to "hold people to account", and it's not necessarily always the priority, nor should it be. I could imagine an abused person not wanting to have anything to do with holding the abuser to account, and that is something that would have to be respected. Forcing them to be involved in a court case could compound their trauma and sense of helplessness. Many victims and their families wouldn't go to the Guards. Some victims no doubt forgive their abuser and want to forget - "blessed are the merciful for they shall have mercy shown to them". There's plenty of sinister stuff going on at the moment which should be our concern - a new UN report which advocates for decriminalising sex with minors, for example. As you know there is civil divorce so if people want to do that now they can. It's very complex though especially for any children involved. Catholic teaching on marriage is the best. 'do you know what you mean?'. Sure. I had Catholicism for breakfast, lunch and dinner same as many of my generation. We could extend 'church' to mean angels, saints, seraphim, cherubim, quick and the dead etc, and the 'true church' remains unsullied beyond the clouds of incense. I use 'church' primarily to mean church hierarchy who knowing shunted people like Smyth and his ilk around. There's no great mystery to who these people are. Does the rank and file 'church' not think the actions of these bishops and archbishops stinks to high heaven?
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 17:26:07 GMT
Regarding whataboutism... Say if an American during the Cold War had been taken to task for McCarthyism and segregation, in a debate with a supporter of the USSR, and he compared those evils with the far worse evils of life in the USSR. Would that have been "whataboutism"? It seems highly relevant. Seems highly relevant to put one's own house in order when it is clearly in disarray, doesn't mean being oblivious to the wider world. You can criticise both the UN bill AND the church's obfuscation, surely. Given that none of us presumably have at seat in the UN, but some of us sit in church starting where you have a chance of being heard not only makes sense but ought to be a moral duty
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 23, 2023 17:34:16 GMT
Regarding whataboutism... Say if an American during the Cold War had been taken to task for McCarthyism and segregation, in a debate with a supporter of the USSR, and he compared those evils with the far worse evils of life in the USSR. Would that have been "whataboutism"? It seems highly relevant. Seems highly relevant to put one's own house in order when it is clearly in disarray, doesn't mean being oblivious to the wider world. You can criticise both the UN bill AND the church's obfuscation, surely. Given that none of us presumably have at seat in the UN, but some of us sit in church starting where you have a chance of being heard not only makes sense but ought to be a moral duty Well, in my view, even at its worst, the Catholic Church had been the most positive force in Ireland for centuries on every level-- social, cultural, spiritual, whatever.
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 17:37:54 GMT
Even at its worst? Its worst has been fairly bad...
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eala
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 17:42:48 GMT
I'm not saying its not or never has been without merit, or that it mightn't be in to the future, but clearly there is some serious pathology in it. People are walking away for it in droves for that self same reason. To blame the liberal media etc, is to avoid the tough questions. There's a harrowing of hell needed here, and there is no signs of it.
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Post by hilary on Apr 23, 2023 21:26:17 GMT
sounds like whataboutism, and no true scotsman... Sounds like a schools debating technique - a couple of phrases to have in your back pocket for when you're stumped...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 23, 2023 21:31:10 GMT
I suppose I should say, even taking its worst into account.
I don't really blame the sex abuse scandals for secularisation in Ireland because it's happening (or happened) all over Europe and the rest of the developed (post)-Christian world, with the relative exception of America. Obviously they didn't help.
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