eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 21:52:45 GMT
sounds like whataboutism, and no true scotsman... Sounds like a schools debating technique - a couple of phrases to have in your back pocket for when you're stumped... stumped? No. Just pointing out that you seem to suggest that a Catholic behaving like a reprobate isn't *really* a Catholic. Also the point is about actual historical reprehensible behaviour in the church unaddressed and concerns people still around, not possible and potential degenerate legislation of the UN in the future.
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Post by hilary on Apr 23, 2023 22:12:11 GMT
'do you know what you mean?'. Sure. I had Catholicism for breakfast, lunch and dinner same as many of my generation. We could extend 'church' to mean angels, saints, seraphim, cherubim, quick and the dead etc, and the 'true church' remains unsullied beyond the clouds of incense. I use 'church' primarily to mean church hierarchy who knowing shunted people like Smyth and his ilk around. There's no great mystery to who these people are. Does the rank and file 'church' not think the actions of these bishops and archbishops stinks to high heaven? Smyth (according to Wikipedia and links therefrom) apparently admitted his offences and was sentenced to 12 years in prison in the Republic. He was first convicted when victims reported him to the police and obviously followed through. When he was first convicted (in N.I.) it seems that he crossed back into the Republic and stayed in his order's abbey for three years. There was a problem with the extradition back to the North and a government fell because of it. He was sentenced to four years for 43 charges of sexual assault and then another three years to run concurrently for another 26 charges, so that suggests to me that either the offences were not of the most serious kind, or that the legal system was lenient to him. The safeguarding policy and the bad publicity probably damaged the church. A bit like the travel/airport restrictions that came in after 9/11, everyone was expected to exercise caution and avoid having a situation where a priest would be left alone with a child. Very unfair, especially as most abuse occurs in the home or by a family member or friend. A lot of people don't think - they go with what they know is expected of them, and when it comes to the Catholic church that's suspicion and the high moral ground. I don't agree that people are leaving the church in droves though. It sounds like you weren't having any of it from the start.
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Post by hilary on Apr 23, 2023 22:23:26 GMT
Sounds like a schools debating technique - a couple of phrases to have in your back pocket for when you're stumped... stumped? No. Just pointing out that you seem to suggest that a Catholic behaving like a reprobate isn't *really* a Catholic. Also the point is about actual historical reprehensible behaviour in the church unaddressed and concerns people still around, not possible and potential degenerate legislation of the UN in the future. Catholics don't all follow Catholic teaching you know. I think the behaviour you're talking about has been addressed ad nauseam. People know it's complicated and there are at least two humans involved - the victim and the offender and offenders have a hard time with the vitriol shown to them. The drag-queen story times and pornographic books in children's sections of libraries, and forcing sex education on young children is real and it's here.
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eala
Full Member
Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 23, 2023 22:26:57 GMT
'do you know what you mean?'. Sure. I had Catholicism for breakfast, lunch and dinner same as many of my generation. We could extend 'church' to mean angels, saints, seraphim, cherubim, quick and the dead etc, and the 'true church' remains unsullied beyond the clouds of incense. I use 'church' primarily to mean church hierarchy who knowing shunted people like Smyth and his ilk around. There's no great mystery to who these people are. Does the rank and file 'church' not think the actions of these bishops and archbishops stinks to high heaven? Smyth (according to Wikipedia and links therefrom) apparently admitted his offences and was sentenced to 12 years in prison in the Republic. He was first convicted when victims reported him to the police and obviously followed through. When he was first convicted (in N.I.) it seems that he crossed back into the Republic and stayed in his order's abbey for three years. There was a problem with the extradition back to the North and a government fell because of it. He was sentenced to four years for 43 charges of sexual assault and then another three years to run concurrently for another 26 charges, so that suggests to me that either the offences were not of the most serious kind, or that the legal system was lenient to him. The safeguarding policy and the bad publicity probably damaged the church. A bit like the travel/airport restrictions that came in after 9/11, everyone was expected to exercise caution and avoid having a situation where a priest would be left alone with a child. Very unfair, especially as most abuse occurs in the home or by a family member or friend. A lot of people don't think - they go with what they know is expected of them, and when it comes to the Catholic church that's suspicion and the high moral ground. I don't agree that people are leaving the church in droves though. It sounds like you weren't having any of it from the start. I wasn't having any of it after Smyth. The fact that he was moved abroad is reprehensible, and these clergy who clearly thought only of reputation of the church and kids be damned ought to be investigated and charged in our courts. Meanwhile in Germany: www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2023/04/18/german-catholic-archbishop-accused-of-concrete-cover-up-of-clerical-sexual-abuse/
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 24, 2023 9:10:38 GMT
I understand this is an emotive issue but, to me, it's a bit like a British person saying that the Harold Shipman case disillusioned them so much with the NHS that they see the whole institution as invalid. It seems out of all proportion. I must admit, even when I was an agnostic I saw the Catholic Church as being the most positive influence on Irish society. Quite aside from the supernatural claims, look at how it has fed the imaginative, literary and cultural life of Irish people down through the ages.
I'm not anti-nationalist because of the atrocities of the IRA. I'm not anti-Islam because of Islamic terrorism. I don't harbour white guilt because of American slavery. I don't harbour heterosexual male guilt because of all the rapes perpetrated by heterosexual men every day. It would just seem inconsistent to apply a different standard to Catholicism.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 24, 2023 11:16:30 GMT
I understand this is an emotive issue but, to me, it's a bit like a British person saying that the Harold Shipman case disillusioned them so much with the NHS that they see the whole institution as invalid. It seems out of all proportion. I must admit, even when I was an agnostic I saw the Catholic Church as being the most positive influence on Irish society. Quite aside from the supernatural claims, look at how it has fed the imaginative, literary and cultural life of Irish people down through the ages. I'm not anti-nationalist because of the atrocities of the IRA. I'm not anti-Islam because of Islamic terrorism. I don't harbour white guilt because of American slavery. I don't harbour heterosexual male guilt because of all the rapes perpetrated by heterosexual men every day. It would just seem inconsistent to apply a different standard to Catholicism. If the executive of the NHS knew about Shipman and other psychopaths in medical practice but decided, for the good name of the NHS,not to tell anyone and to send Shipman and his kind abroad where they could wreak havoc, your analogy would hold. In such an instance medicine would be valid but it would raise serious questions about the validity of the NHS
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 24, 2023 11:28:24 GMT
I understand this is an emotive issue but, to me, it's a bit like a British person saying that the Harold Shipman case disillusioned them so much with the NHS that they see the whole institution as invalid. It seems out of all proportion. I must admit, even when I was an agnostic I saw the Catholic Church as being the most positive influence on Irish society. Quite aside from the supernatural claims, look at how it has fed the imaginative, literary and cultural life of Irish people down through the ages. I'm not anti-nationalist because of the atrocities of the IRA. I'm not anti-Islam because of Islamic terrorism. I don't harbour white guilt because of American slavery. I don't harbour heterosexual male guilt because of all the rapes perpetrated by heterosexual men every day. It would just seem inconsistent to apply a different standard to Catholicism. Re the IRA and nationalism, presumably you WOULD insist on justice in the case of Jean McConvill, presumably someone not directly involved in here killing but buying safe passage out of the country for her killers would also be culpable
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 24, 2023 11:35:42 GMT
I understand this is an emotive issue but, to me, it's a bit like a British person saying that the Harold Shipman case disillusioned them so much with the NHS that they see the whole institution as invalid. It seems out of all proportion. I must admit, even when I was an agnostic I saw the Catholic Church as being the most positive influence on Irish society. Quite aside from the supernatural claims, look at how it has fed the imaginative, literary and cultural life of Irish people down through the ages. I'm not anti-nationalist because of the atrocities of the IRA. I'm not anti-Islam because of Islamic terrorism. I don't harbour white guilt because of American slavery. I don't harbour heterosexual male guilt because of all the rapes perpetrated by heterosexual men every day. It would just seem inconsistent to apply a different standard to Catholicism. Re Islamism, surely you'd a. want terrorists brought to court, b. criticise any organisation, from mosque to country that harbours them c. want to know what kind of ideology leads someone to think this harbouring is ok
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 24, 2023 11:41:00 GMT
I understand this is an emotive issue but, to me, it's a bit like a British person saying that the Harold Shipman case disillusioned them so much with the NHS that they see the whole institution as invalid. It seems out of all proportion. I must admit, even when I was an agnostic I saw the Catholic Church as being the most positive influence on Irish society. Quite aside from the supernatural claims, look at how it has fed the imaginative, literary and cultural life of Irish people down through the ages. I'm not anti-nationalist because of the atrocities of the IRA. I'm not anti-Islam because of Islamic terrorism. I don't harbour white guilt because of American slavery. I don't harbour heterosexual male guilt because of all the rapes perpetrated by heterosexual men every day. It would just seem inconsistent to apply a different standard to Catholicism. Let's also distinguish between a. being de facto part of a group because of immutable characteristics e.g. race and b. supporting and being part of a creed or political affiliation you can opt out of.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Apr 24, 2023 13:42:00 GMT
Well, I feel this particular discussion could go round and round forever, so I'll leave you the last word on it, with all goodwill.
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eala
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Posts: 156
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Post by eala on Apr 24, 2023 15:39:38 GMT
Well, I feel this particular discussion could go round and round forever, so I'll leave you the last word on it, with all goodwill. . Circling while seemingly... circuitous... is sometimes important to define the centre. Le gach dea-ghuí
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