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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2023 6:31:08 GMT
This summer the main topic in our politics in Sweden became inflamed in several aspects. First to have given permission for some few provocative burnings. Then a reaction with clashes between police and Muslim hooligans. Then new burnings, and much worse reactions abroad. 57 Muslim nations going together in animosity against Sweden. Where about 1 million or so have got safe welfare, rich social service money support provided by State etc etc. Now met by arrogance, despiceful attitudes and beginning of the long feared demands. In one of the major academe towns they now build a vastly enlarged Mosque. I guess next year or so they will demand forcefully to have Minaret outcry in public sphere, and so on and on (next election trying again to get inside Parliament, to thus onward be established in power, by their own new political party/parties as solid demanding machine).
But how to consider the burnings triggering the troubles? Most people dislike the events because of showing such lack of basic humane respect. People either find islam beside the point or stay as they are indifferent to most religion. The quite sad and unimportant ecumenical council has made a polite statement, a bit debated in Catholic Fb groups where many were sceptical.
Political leaders have been a bit cautious. Very few voices ask for repatriation, first directly the worst criminals and further "the rest of them" back to MiddleEast and Africa. They burned down the Embassy (!) in Iraq. It has become a major crisis. Predictable when one first gave the permission for the provocateurs to burn. But also predictable as related to huge numbers of migrants. There it goes...
What would a conservative say?
Right or wrong to use freedom of speech legislation for such acts? Not even speech, but an act I would argue.
Right or wrong to appease the Muslims by giving in to no end "kindness" approach?
Is it even possible to talk in terms of right and wrong, regarding corrupt politics debate of the present day type?
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Post by cato on Jul 27, 2023 9:30:16 GMT
Have people a "right" to burn the Quran? I would say in a strict sense Yes. But why would you want to?
I'ts clear most people engaging in this behaviour are agents provocateurs. I detest the brutal bullying attitude of militant Islam which will kill or loot and destroy in response to a blasphemy.
Part of traditional conservatism is respect and courtesy , virtues all too rare in the culture wars. Newman defined a gentleman as someone who would never go out of his way to cause unnecessary offence. I paraphrase!
Treating people with respect especially our opponents is deeply rooted in the Gospels and in the notion of mankind created in the image of God. Much of modern social interaction has no respect or forgiveness. Conservative commentators should give example by calling out senseless displays of religious provocation in volatile situations.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 27, 2023 10:16:20 GMT
Have people a "right" to burn the Quran? I would say in a strict sense Yes. But why would you want to? I'ts clear most people engaging in this behaviour are agents provocateurs. I detest the brutal bullying attitude of militant Islam which will kill or loot and destroy in response to a blasphemy. Part of traditional conservatism is respect and courtesy , virtues all too rare in the culture wars. Newman defined a gentleman as someone who would never go out of his way to cause unnecessary offence. I paraphrase! Treating people with respect especially our opponents is deeply rooted in the Gospels and in the notion of mankind created in the image of God. Much of modern social interaction has no respect or forgiveness. Conservative commentators should give example by calling out senseless displays of religious provocation in volatile situations. Agreed. The fact that you have a legal right to do something doesn't mean you have a moral right to do it. All burning of holy books, flags, and other symbols that are sacred to people seems abhorrent to me. I specifically think religious believers should be making friends with Muslims in the West rather than antagonizing them. They may well be an important ally in the struggle against militant secularism. None of which should silence us when it comes to criticism of Islamic regimes, or plain facts about the history of the religion (such as the role of violence in spreading it). Every religion has its dark side. Christianity has a lot to apologize for when it comes to the Jews. Surely Muslims have as much right to build places of worship as anybody else. |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2023 10:53:37 GMT
Sane commenting, most happy to read both of these above. I think the Christian way really is that, to love (=venerate, honour, not feeling affection) also enemies - even deadly ones however impossible that might seem - and not only your own close fellows. To be friends with Muslims, many of which are secular here, is interesting too actually! When I came back from Bosnia visit last year a certain personnage "supported" me when told about interconnection with Muslims there.
What most friends have felt in this business is first and foremost a dislike for the events. The ones that wants it are most, or almost only, some of the more atheist libertarians or protestants (outside the major body Church of Sweden) or engaged in the SD-party (the one that was getting the easiest votes and blaming the lousy - in more than one way - previous governments for the enormous mass migration, and that is not in the government but allied to it so thus made the difference that we got much needed government shift). Several Swedes in this crowd cheer in social media for more burnings and for casting out the criminals en masse. But it´s lots of shouting and less realistic as politics. The party itself is trying to gain from the turbulence but rest of the establishment is trying to settle the much heightened security threats rather.
Having a formal right and not doing it, out of reasonable moral objection or better reasons, could perhaps as additional in some instance give some help in being witness collectively to the anti-Catholic prejudice as well. If the polite and fine formulated "kind" statement, that sounded a bit in wordings like it had been written by our beloved Cardinal himself (but I haven´t asked anyone if it was) could be a sign for some that those Catholics are like ordinary people in basic assessments. Not just foreign or extremist by the semi-harsh Swedish measure. Modern Sweden is always liberal, and tainted socialist, but still there are conservative values behind in the background - from "left to right" overall almost.
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Post by Tomas on Jul 27, 2023 11:10:45 GMT
Surely Muslims have as much right to build places of worship as anybody else. Buildings absolutely. But I would not like to (would hate to) appease the islamists too much as to give in to having their will in any demands for minaret outcries. When they be given that right I think it would be as bad as selling out. Politically worse than having given the provocateurs the bad right to stir them up with the burnings in the first place. It does not fit in, and despite being open secular nation it is far too much appeasement to entertain that woke line. That post-Christian indifference we have of remnant faith is worth far better fate, than to be replaced by militant islamist filth - lifted in public on daily State sponsor basis. I loved to hear wondrous (very good performers around) singing in Sarajevo, but it is not at all the same in this part of the world!! Continued enforced moves to maintain blurred multicultural ideology mode is better gone. Swedes abhor the low treatment of women as sex slaves, not to mention the pederast thing and barbaric killings. Many here are lgtbq-supporters, but most have some limit still when it comes to abusing children. |
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Post by Séamus on Jul 28, 2023 12:50:57 GMT
Surely Muslims have as much right to build places of worship as anybody else. Buildings absolutely. But I would not like to (would hate to) appease the islamists too much as to give in to having their will in any demands for minaret outcries. When they be given that right I think it would be as bad as selling out. Politically worse than having given the provocateurs the bad right to stir them up with the burnings in the first place. It does not fit in, and despite being open secular nation it is far too much appeasement to entertain that woke line. That post-Christian indifference we have of remnant faith is worth far better fate, than to be replaced by militant islamist filth - lifted in public on daily State sponsor basis. I loved to hear wondrous (very good performers around) singing in Sarajevo, but it is not at all the same in this part of the world!! Continued enforced moves to maintain blurred multicultural ideology mode is better gone. Swedes abhor the low treatment of women as sex slaves, not to mention the pederast thing and barbaric killings. Many here are lgtbq-supporters, but most have some limit still when it comes to abusing children. I don't know if you'll find this humorous, but I know a lady who flew to Copenhagen to see her Sweden-based daughter (came as a surprise to me that this was the easier flight- came as a surprise that it was train from Denmark to Sweden- I then assumed it went under the sea, she assures me it goes over the sea); her daughter picks her up in Stockholm on these occasions and drives her to their (rural) home, somehow she ended up this time in Malmö at 4am- all she'd heard about the city was crime and violent gangs of migrants from Islamic countries. She says the station had no visible staff at this hour, when she tried ringing her daughter her phone seemingly froze, as she herself did. I'm not sure how long she waited at the deserted terminal, but every shadow seemed very much an attacking imam. The numbness melted when she finally boarded another train- the conductor received the retroactive lacrimose outpouring of her distress. Lesson: whether or not imams kidnap Latin American ladies, looks like they're all in bed at 4am. |
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Post by hilary on Jul 28, 2023 19:15:26 GMT
Buildings absolutely. But I would not like to (would hate to) appease the islamists too much as to give in to having their will in any demands for minaret outcries. When they be given that right I think it would be as bad as selling out. Politically worse than having given the provocateurs the bad right to stir them up with the burnings in the first place. It does not fit in, and despite being open secular nation it is far too much appeasement to entertain that woke line. That post-Christian indifference we have of remnant faith is worth far better fate, than to be replaced by militant islamist filth - lifted in public on daily State sponsor basis. I loved to hear wondrous (very good performers around) singing in Sarajevo, but it is not at all the same in this part of the world!! Continued enforced moves to maintain blurred multicultural ideology mode is better gone. Swedes abhor the low treatment of women as sex slaves, not to mention the pederast thing and barbaric killings. Many here are lgtbq-supporters, but most have some limit still when it comes to abusing children. I don't know if you'll find this humorous, but I know a lady who flew to Copenhagen to see her Sweden-based daughter (came as a surprise to me that this was the easier flight- came as a surprise that it was train from Denmark to Sweden- I then assumed it went under the sea, she assures me it goes over the sea); her daughter picks her up in Stockholm on these occasions and drives her to their (rural) home, somehow she ended up this time in Malmö at 4am- all she'd heard about the city was crime and violent gangs of migrants from Islamic countries. She says the station had no visible staff at this hour, when she tried ringing her daughter her phone seemingly froze, as she herself did. I'm not sure how long she waited at the deserted terminal, but every shadow seemed very much an attacking imam. The numbness melted when she finally boarded another train- the conductor received the retroactive lacrimose outpouring of her distress. Lesson: whether or not imams kidnap Latin American ladies, looks like they're all in bed at 4am. Yes, it's funny. I can relate. |
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Post by Tomas on Jul 31, 2023 7:22:19 GMT
Buildings absolutely. But I would not like to (would hate to) appease the islamists too much as to give in to having their will in any demands for minaret outcries. When they be given that right I think it would be as bad as selling out. Politically worse than having given the provocateurs the bad right to stir them up with the burnings in the first place. It does not fit in, and despite being open secular nation it is far too much appeasement to entertain that woke line. That post-Christian indifference we have of remnant faith is worth far better fate, than to be replaced by militant islamist filth - lifted in public on daily State sponsor basis. I loved to hear wondrous (very good performers around) singing in Sarajevo, but it is not at all the same in this part of the world!! Continued enforced moves to maintain blurred multicultural ideology mode is better gone. Swedes abhor the low treatment of women as sex slaves, not to mention the pederast thing and barbaric killings. Many here are lgtbq-supporters, but most have some limit still when it comes to abusing children. I don't know if you'll find this humorous, but I know a lady who flew to Copenhagen to see her Sweden-based daughter (came as a surprise to me that this was the easier flight- came as a surprise that it was train from Denmark to Sweden- I then assumed it went under the sea, she assures me it goes over the sea); her daughter picks her up in Stockholm on these occasions and drives her to their (rural) home, somehow she ended up this time in Malmö at 4am- all she'd heard about the city was crime and violent gangs of migrants from Islamic countries. She says the station had no visible staff at this hour, when she tried ringing her daughter her phone seemingly froze, as she herself did. I'm not sure how long she waited at the deserted terminal, but every shadow seemed very much an attacking imam. The numbness melted when she finally boarded another train- the conductor received the retroactive lacrimose outpouring of her distress. Lesson: whether or not imams kidnap Latin American ladies, looks like they're all in bed at 4am. Haha, well transport may take some routes that gets you faster while going not the straight way, so that example makes some (!) sense. Deserted train station would be similar in many places, not just countryside or small towns. While Malmö is the city by some labeled Kalifat etc there are troubles in sentiment here and there now. Muslims of secular bent that came in late 20th century probably often feel awkward at the present islamist surge. The last line Lesson was a most fun one, most welcome to contrast the horrible polemics at the moment! |
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