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Post by cato on Jun 12, 2024 15:41:13 GMT
I know a proper Irish Nativist Canon should start in Early Christian Ireland but that's a job for another day.
Nativist here is Irish writing advocating explicitly or implicitly for an Irish Ireland. Writers like Kavanagh, Joyce , Behan and O Casey are deeply Irish and part of the National Canon but are not included here as they are often directly critical of Irish Ireland.
Art, music,architecture, folklore makes up a large part of a Nativist Canon but again work for another thread.
Kicking off with the Writings of Patrick Pearse. All of his work seem to come under this umbrella.
Daniel Corkery The Hidden Ireland.
Poetry and writing of W B Yeats.
Frank O Connor Short Stories
The Great O Neill Sean O Faolain
The Philosophy of Irish Ireland DP Moran (This is quite a fun read. Moran had very little Irish himself I believe.)
The Irish Republic by Dorothy McArdle. This is history according to 1930s Fianna Fail.
Aodh de Blacam was a big culture warrior back in the day but I haven't read him. Does anyone?
I have a soft spot for Eoin Mc Neill so Phases of Irish History makes the list.
Fr John Ryan's Irish Monasticism is probably the best traditional introduction to that important phenomena.
Ernie O Malley's On another man's wound and The Singing Flame? Beautiful writing and the only real literary work by an IRA commander.
Thomas Kinsella's translation of The Tain.
An Dunaire . Poems of the dispossessed by Sean O Tuama.
Desmond Fennell's journalism and assorted books.
Lord Longfords hagiography of Eamon De Valera.
The Field Day Anthology of Irish Writing was a magnificent project in 1990 edited by Derry man Seamus Deane . It has everyone in Irish literature(except an underrepresentation of wimmin. That caused feminist outrage) but its one of the best source books for Nativist (and anti Nativist) writing.
Thomas Cahill's How the Irish Saved Civilisation. Popularised History which makes medievalists wince but it may be the most widely read work cited here.
Daphne Pochin Mould (what a name!) wrote some lovely books on saints, pilgrimages and travel in the 1950s and 60s. Sadly now out of print.
John Waters Dancing at the Crossroads. Is this when the Nativist Canon closed?
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eala
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Post by eala on Jun 12, 2024 19:20:24 GMT
Maybe directly critical is a good thing. Flann would be in that camp and he's as steeped in Gaelic tradition as is possible. We have Irish Ireland I suppose, what we have only on the reservations west of the Shannon is Gaelic Ireland.
Maybe I'm soaking in too much Corkery at the moment, but I'd question many of the Ascendency being in the Irish Ireland camp and certainly in the Gaelic Ireland camp. While Yeats is a world class poet, his Celtic mist stuff always seemed twee to me, same with Lady Gregory, and, well, the ascendancy were pretty much the problem in the first place. I WOULD give Hyde and similar pride of place and this because of Irish language scholarship — actually, by default I think whoever writing in Irish gets a pass. Seamus Heaney also would seem to me of this world.
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Post by cato on Jun 12, 2024 19:38:37 GMT
Maybe directly critical is a good thing. Flann would be in that camp and he's steeped in Gaelic tradition. We have Irish Ireland I suppose, what we have only on the reservations west of the Shannon is Gaelic Ireland. Maybe I'm soaking in too much Corkery at the moment, but I'd question many of the Ascendency being in the Irish Ireland camp and certainly in the Gaelic Ireland camp. While Yeats is a world class poet, his Celtic mist stuff always seemed twee to me, same with Lady Gregory, and, well, the ascendancy were pretty much the problem in the first place. I WOULD give Hyde and similar pride of place and this because of Irish language scholarship — actually, by default I think whoever writing in Irish gets a pass. Seamus Heaney also would seem to me of this world. The list is a stream of consciousness thing and I thought hard about including Yeats or not. His stuff on Fairies for example can be twee but it does tap into authentic tradition. O Brien is an interesting case. I loved An Beal Bocht but I would exclude him for his iconlastic journalism published originally in the Irish Times. The inclusion of any Irish language book automatically has its attractions but I am old fashioned enough to respect the authors own intentions. Iconoclasm is generally a very wicked thing. Peig is in of course. Caislean Oir and much of the work of the Mac Grianna brothers from Ranafast in Donegal. Robin Flower wrote a lovely little book on Gaelic literature The Irish Tradition which deserves to be read. His travel books about Connacht are supposed to be good but I haven't read any. Yet. So many books and so little time. I'd part company with Corkery on the Anglo Irish issue. Many of the leading lights in the Antiquarian movements and the Gaelic revival were from that community. |
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eala
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Post by eala on Jun 12, 2024 20:31:42 GMT
Maybe directly critical is a good thing. Flann would be in that camp and he's steeped in Gaelic tradition. We have Irish Ireland I suppose, what we have only on the reservations west of the Shannon is Gaelic Ireland. Maybe I'm soaking in too much Corkery at the moment, but I'd question many of the Ascendency being in the Irish Ireland camp and certainly in the Gaelic Ireland camp. While Yeats is a world class poet, his Celtic mist stuff always seemed twee to me, same with Lady Gregory, and, well, the ascendancy were pretty much the problem in the first place. I WOULD give Hyde and similar pride of place and this because of Irish language scholarship — actually, by default I think whoever writing in Irish gets a pass. Seamus Heaney also would seem to me of this world. The list is a stream of consciousness thing and I thought hard about including Yeats or not. His stuff on Fairies for example can be twee but it does tap into authentic tradition. O Brien is an interesting case. I loved An Beal Bocht but I would exclude him for his iconlastic journalism published originally in the Irish Times. The inclusion of any Irish language book automatically has its attractions but I am old fashioned enough to respect the authors own intentions. Iconoclasm is generally a very wicked thing. Peig is in of course. Caislean Oir and much of the work of the Mac Grianna brothers from Ranafast in Donegal. Robin Flower wrote a lovely little book on Gaelic literature The Irish Tradition which deserves to be read. His travel books about Connacht are supposed to be good but I haven't read any. Yet. So many books and so little time. I'd part company with Corkery on the Anglo Irish issue. Many of the leading lights in the Antiquarian movements and the Gaelic revival were from that community. What was O'Brien breaking though. Iconoclasm depends on the icons I suppose. You could make a case that much Anglo-Irish material, and the Irish novelist and journalists following suit is essentially reproducing English forms with a little picaresque Paddywhackery. I'm not so much for breaking those forms so much as just abandoning them. Much of the Irish Times was and is West British. I wouldn't be one to cry too many tears for it. I'm not against Anglo-Irish as such, but in my book they have to prove themselves. They had a free ride on top of the horse for centuries while turning the natives in to paupers, so if they are to be included in either Irish Ireland or civil society they need to make up for lost ground. |
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Post by kj on Jun 13, 2024 10:59:53 GMT
I've only read snippets of him because of my shameful lack of Irish, but how about Máirtín Ó Cadhain? Although he was a Marxist, as Wiki says, "Politically, Ó Cadhain was an Irish republican and anti-clerical Marxist, who promoted the Athghabháil na hÉireann ("Re-Conquest of Ireland"), (meaning both decolonization and re-Gaelicisation)."
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Post by cato on Jun 14, 2024 11:25:32 GMT
I've only read snippets of him because of my shameful lack of Irish, but how about Máirtín Ó Cadhain? Although he was a Marxist, as Wiki says, "Politically, Ó Cadhain was an Irish republican and anti-clerical Marxist, who promoted the Athghabháil na hÉireann ("Re-Conquest of Ireland"), (meaning both decolonization and re-Gaelicisation)." I always thought of him as a Modernist. I think the idea of automatically assuming everything Gaelic is traditional denies the agency and intentions of the author. I know he could have written English language works to gain a wider audience but arguably he's subverting the native tradition from within. That's a practice Marxists have practiced in many places for many decades. |
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Post by cato on Jun 14, 2024 11:33:57 GMT
]What was O'Brien breaking though. Iconoclasm depends on the icons I suppose. You could make a case that much Anglo-Irish material, and the Irish novelist and journalists following suit is essentially reproducing English forms with a little picaresque Paddywhackery. I'm not so much for breaking those forms so much as just abandoning them. Much of the Irish Times was and is West British. I wouldn't be one to cry too many tears for it. I'm not against Anglo-Irish as such, but in my book they have to prove themselves. They had a free ride on top of the horse for centuries while turning the natives in to paupers, so if they are to be included in either Irish Ireland or civil society they need to make up for lost ground. [/quote]
O Brien was mocking the new official Gaelicisation policies pursued by the state and the hypocrisy paid by some to a cause good in itself but exploited by some for financial gain.
I wouldn't see someone like Swift or Burke as Irish Ireland but I don't think anyone would say their works are simply copying English forms. They are universal works influenced by Irish conditions. They fit into a wider Irish Canon and are probably in the top tier there in terms of global recognition and impact
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eala
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Post by eala on Jun 15, 2024 22:10:43 GMT
]What was O'Brien breaking though. Iconoclasm depends on the icons I suppose. You could make a case that much Anglo-Irish material, and the Irish novelist and journalists following suit is essentially reproducing English forms with a little picaresque Paddywhackery. I'm not so much for breaking those forms so much as just abandoning them. Much of the Irish Times was and is West British. I wouldn't be one to cry too many tears for it. I'm not against Anglo-Irish as such, but in my book they have to prove themselves. They had a free ride on top of the horse for centuries while turning the natives in to paupers, so if they are to be included in either Irish Ireland or civil society they need to make up for lost ground. O Brien was mocking the new official Gaelicisation policies pursued by the state and the hypocrisy paid by some to a cause good in itself but exploited by some for financial gain. I wouldn't see someone like Swift or Burke as Irish Ireland but I don't think anyone would say their works are simply copying English forms. They are universal works influenced by Irish conditions. They fit into a wider Irish Canon and are probably in the top tier there in terms of global recognition and impact [/quote] I'm a fan of Swift and Burke, and they are world class first rate, without question, as is Yeats. However, I think each of these sets his sights elsewhere. |
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Post by cato on Jun 16, 2024 7:53:02 GMT
I'm a fan of Swift and Burke, and they are world class first rate, without question, as is Yeats. However, I think each of these sets his sights elsewhere.[/quote]
Their works transcend Ireland and are part of the wider western Canon. It's something we can take pride in. In the Great Melody ( a book I need to finish) Conor Cruise O Brien emphasises Burkes Catholic roots and sympathies. Similarly Yeats drew from native Folklore and the revived Celtic mythology in the late 19th century. Traditionally Nationalists emphasised what makes them alien. Nowadays we tend to value what they shared with the native tradition. That's a good development in my opinion.
Similarly in the political realm a figure like Daniel O Connell advanced social reform and constitutionalism within a British context even though that was not his primary goal. He tended to be dismissed by Irish Irelanders but at another level he's one of the great catholic liberal humanitarian figures of the 19th century. His firm constitutionalism and opposition to political violence founded a proud and ethical anti revolutionary movement which was also anti colonial. Something modern anti colonisers could learn from. If they learn anything any more. O Connell is one of the Conservative radical giants of the 19th century and sadly under appreciated among Irish Patriotic types today.
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eala
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Post by eala on Jun 20, 2024 20:38:04 GMT
John Waters?
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Post by cato on Jun 21, 2024 11:20:20 GMT
You may have noted I included him as the last Nativist with a question mark. He writes and speaks a lot so it's hard to pin him down precisely. He's nostalgic in a good sense for the Ireland of the old Roads , CJ Haughey and is hated by his former employer The Irish Times. He's also a traditionalist and a fierce insightful critic of post modern Ireland. In many ways he's the nearest thing we have to the non Irish speaking journalist DP Moran who wrote the Philosophy of Irish Ireland. (Really a collection of his journalism from his journal The Leader) |
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eala
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Post by eala on Jun 27, 2024 21:58:17 GMT
Why include people writing in Irish by default, be they Ó Cadhain with his Marxist tendencies, or the writers of Bran ag an Sorcas : Like Ó Cadhain I don't think there IS an Irish Ireland without the Irish language www.youtube.com/watch?v=q91o5WC5plM |
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Post by rogerbuck on Jun 29, 2024 17:11:20 GMT
Glad to have this list, thread! Important to do, I think.
I will quickly add that I am currently being blown away by Knocknagow by Charles Kickham—who I see does not feature here.
Michael Collins reportedly wept reading it.
I understand why.
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Post by cato on Jul 3, 2024 12:36:54 GMT
Why include people writing in Irish by default, be they Ó Cadhain with his Marxist tendencies, or the writers of Bran ag an Sorcas : Like Ó Cadhain I don't think there IS an Irish Ireland without the Irish language www.youtube.com/watch?v=q91o5WC5plMPersonally I don't buy the argument that the Irish language is inherently anti modern or traditional. TG4 and RNG are just as progressive as the vile RTE itself. Would the Writings of Lenin or Stalin be viewed as traditionally Russian for example? Certainly they would be historically important and significant hbut they were deeply hostile to traditional Russian values There is a distinct breed of middle class Irish progressive on social media who loves mocking non Irish speaking working class people who have the wrong "far right" views on immigration. One of the things I noticed during the Same Sex marriage and Abortion referenda were large numbers of progressive catholics even among daily mass goers. The rot in Ireland is deep. The Church, FF/FG , the GAA , schools, universities, and the Irish language movement are all progressive dominated institutions. |
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eala
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Post by eala on Jul 16, 2024 15:09:38 GMT
Why include people writing in Irish by default, be they Ó Cadhain with his Marxist tendencies, or the writers of Bran ag an Sorcas : Like Ó Cadhain I don't think there IS an Irish Ireland without the Irish language www.youtube.com/watch?v=q91o5WC5plMPersonally I don't buy the argument that the Irish language is inherently anti modern or traditional. TG4 and RNG are just as progressive as the vile RTE itself. Would the Writings of Lenin or Stalin be viewed as traditionally Russian for example? Certainly they would be historically important and significant hbut they were deeply hostile to traditional Russian values There is a distinct breed of middle class Irish progressive on social media who loves mocking non Irish speaking working class people who have the wrong "far right" views on immigration. One of the things I noticed during the Same Sex marriage and Abortion referenda were large numbers of progressive catholics even among daily mass goers. The rot in Ireland is deep. The Church, FF/FG , the GAA , schools, universities, and the Irish language movement are all progressive dominated institutions. Traditional yes, clearly, anti modern no. But it is some kind of a filter on the torrent of Anglo-American guff, given that said guff must at least be selected and translated. |
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