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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 18, 2017 9:59:50 GMT
I think the thing is, you and I are Catholics but if we want to flourish in a society which is not based on Catholic assumptions, we need a set of commonly-agreed upon values to argue from.
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Post by Stephen on Jul 18, 2017 10:31:48 GMT
We should be working to have a rebirth of Catholic values in a society by historical analysis is on the edge of collapse.
I don't think it is a good idea to incorporate non-Catholic principle that has origins in the Renaissance, Protestantism, Enlightenment and Masonic philosophies/theologies.(Obviously, some ideas will be good)
Catholics should not do the same thing over and over again and expect different results.
So the question I have is freedom of speech part of a Catholic society and if so what speech should be restricted if any?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 18, 2017 10:55:30 GMT
These are my problems with your argument and your question: This is the politics and current affairs sub-forum, rather than the religion sub-forum, and it can't be assumed that the discussion is governed by Catholic principles. Yes, virtually all members so far are Catholics and even conservative Catholics, but not everyone and the forum is not restricted to Catholics or even Christians. Of course, you absolutely can argue in favour of Catholic social principles here but I don't think you should start from them-- you need to argue them on their own merit.
But, more substantially, there's the whole notion of assuming a Catholic society and then arguing from that. "First catch your hare", as the famous cookbook started one recipe (or rather didn't, as it seems to be a legend). We're nowhere near a Catholic social order now. We're moving away from it. I would like just as much as you to see a society ordered to Catholic principles, but until that happens (if it ever does) we are left arguing on the basis of more general ideas of right and wrong. Even within conservative circles. I just don't see the utility of drawing up the ideal society under a Catholic philosopher king. "Thomas Aquinas said" unfortunately has little traction in our society today.
As for your question, whether freedom of speech is a right under Catholic teaching, I'll admit I don't know, though I suspect it is. The problem with answering is that I know you don't accept the current Catechism as authoritative, so I'd have to know what you would accept as authoritative. I did find some Edward Feser blog posts on the subject that look interesting but they're quite long and dense, I may look at them later.
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Post by Stephen on Jul 18, 2017 11:21:12 GMT
You are right indeed. I do not see the new Catechism as being authoritative as parts do not follow the traditions and teachings of the church. That being said anyone that can point me to a pre conciliar document on freedom of speech, I am all ears (or even a modern one  ). Better to leave this to another topic. "This is the politics and current affairs sub-forum, rather than the religion sub-forum". The problem with this statement is I see no distinction between them as Catholicism permeates every part of my life. I am happy to argue the merits as they helped build the greatest of all civilisations. I usually have to do this but I am starting to wonder if this is truly a good approach. "We're nowhere near a Catholic social order now. We're moving away from it" We are indeed moving away from it. But I think our civilisation on the edge of collapse. When I talk about a rebirth of Catholic principle I mean in the aftermath of this collapse. This is a different issue and many will disagree. I will say freedom of speech at the moment is our friends in many ways. but is definitely is a double edged sword. |
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2017 12:09:21 GMT
It's funny how classic notions of free speech were once seen as liberal issues whereas it was conservatives who were in favour of censorship and a suspicion of diverse opinion.
Independent news (Irish Independent) has taken down its' comments section citing Ireland's draconian libel laws. I bet there is a big case involving the Indo in the high court at the moment. Many of the comments were abusive and personalised on various topics. I wonder do people vent nasty comments on line that they could never ever get away with uttering in public?
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Oct 9, 2017 13:04:41 GMT
Jordan Peterson has a deep take on this (heterodox on Christianity though).
The Logos is the power of speech to order the world out of the inherent, primordial chaos of the universe, at all kinds of resolutions: organisational, governmental, societal...
God uses the Word - the Logos - at the beginning of time to create the world. Later the Logos became incarnate in the world as Christ. This is to say, the Logos is a faculty of man (all men, not just Christ) that is supernatural or divine or sacred in origin and supernatural or divine or sacred in power. Efforts to curtail it are always ruinous and always ultimately futile.
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Oct 9, 2017 13:10:30 GMT
For me, speech is an even more fundamental faculty of man than something to be identified as one of his rights. To restrict his speech is something akin to trying to restrict the opposability of his thumbs or the uprightness of his gait.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 9, 2017 13:10:36 GMT
I have to admit, I think Jordan Petersen is full of it.
Kudos to him for standing up to college fascists, but I think he's vastly overrated as a thinker.
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Post by MourningIreland on Oct 9, 2017 13:16:34 GMT
It's funny how classic notions of free speech were once seen as liberal issues whereas it was conservatives who were in favour of censorship and a suspicion of diverse opinion. Independent news (Irish Independent) has taken down its' comments section citing Ireland's draconian libel laws. I bet there is a big case involving the Indo in the high court at the moment. Many of the comments were abusive and personalised on various topics. I wonder do people vent nasty comments on line that they could never ever get away with uttering in public? I noticed this yesterday. The first thing that occurred to me was that it appears to coincide with a noticeable spike in conservative comments around topical subjects such as the George Hook kerfuffle and the Repeal the 8th Campaign that were getting upvoted heavily. I'm not saying there is any connection, but the thought that there might be did cross my mind. The Independent is supposed to be more conservative than the Irish Times but there coverage of President Trump was a revelation to me that caused me to lose all respect for them. In my opinion they are as disgraceful as CNN, MSNBC, or the BBC. With that said, they do seem to be starting to cover the Pro-life campaign with some objectivity, so perhaps there is a war going on internally for the direction of the paper. The absence of reader comments is a huge blow to the conservative cause in my view. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 9, 2017 13:37:23 GMT
It's funny how classic notions of free speech were once seen as liberal issues whereas it was conservatives who were in favour of censorship and a suspicion of diverse opinion. Independent news (Irish Independent) has taken down its' comments section citing Ireland's draconian libel laws. I bet there is a big case involving the Indo in the high court at the moment. Many of the comments were abusive and personalised on various topics. I wonder do people vent nasty comments on line that they could never ever get away with uttering in public? I noticed this yesterday. The first thing that occurred to me was that it appears to coincide with a noticeable spike in conservative comments around topical subjects such as the George Hook kerfuffle and the Repeal the 8th Campaign that were getting upvoted heavily. I'm not saying there is any connection, but the thought that there might be did cross my mind. The Independent is supposed to be more conservative than the Irish Times but there coverage of President Trump was a revelation to me that caused me to lose all respect for them. In my opinion they are as disgraceful as CNN, MSNBC, or the BBC. With that said, they do seem to be starting to cover the Pro-life campaign with some objectivity, so perhaps there is a war going on internally for the direction of the paper. The absence of reader comments is a huge blow to the conservative cause in my view. I agree very much with this last sentence, and I absolutely believe that it's done for PC reasons. I think this is why comboxes are disappearing all over. |
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Post by MourningIreland on Oct 9, 2017 13:40:10 GMT
I noticed this yesterday. The first thing that occurred to me was that it appears to coincide with a noticeable spike in conservative comments around topical subjects such as the George Hook kerfuffle and the Repeal the 8th Campaign that were getting upvoted heavily. I'm not saying there is any connection, but the thought that there might be did cross my mind. The Independent is supposed to be more conservative than the Irish Times but there coverage of President Trump was a revelation to me that caused me to lose all respect for them. In my opinion they are as disgraceful as CNN, MSNBC, or the BBC. With that said, they do seem to be starting to cover the Pro-life campaign with some objectivity, so perhaps there is a war going on internally for the direction of the paper. The absence of reader comments is a huge blow to the conservative cause in my view. I agree very much with this last sentence, and I absolutely believe that it's done for PC reasons. I think this is why comboxes are disappearing all over. The Trump Revolution was the revolution of the combox. Speaking for myself, without the education I have received on the internet I would be completely in the dark about everything going on in the world. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 9, 2017 13:42:10 GMT
I agree very much with this last sentence, and I absolutely believe that it's done for PC reasons. I think this is why comboxes are disappearing all over. The Trump Revolution was the revolution of the combox. Speaking for myself, without the education I have received on the internet I would be completely in the dark about everything going on in the world. This is why CNN and Irish Times types are so scared of "fake news"! |
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Post by MourningIreland on Oct 9, 2017 13:42:35 GMT
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Post by Stephen on Jul 3, 2018 15:05:17 GMT
Free speech is a Myth!!!
In Europe one can say alot, unless you go against aset norm such as denial of the Holocaust and you would be sent to prison.I personally believe in censorship as nothing should be allowed that uses profanity, promotes evil ideologies such as Communism, scandalising the innocent, etc.
But because who is currently in charge of the system and the system itself, I would be for a general allowance of free speech regrettably.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jul 4, 2018 13:22:24 GMT
Free speech is a Myth!!! In Europe one can say alot, unless you go against aset norm such as denial of the Holocaust and you would be sent to prison.I personally believe in censorship as nothing should be allowed that uses profanity, promotes evil ideologies such as Communism, scandalising the innocent, etc. But because who is currently in charge of the system and the system itself, I would be for a general allowance of free speech regrettably. I also believe in censorship, but I don't think I would be as radical as you! I agree that profanity, blasphemy, obscenity, and so forth shouldn't be tolerated in a decent society. I don't mean I would actually outlaw such things, but I certainly think the entertainment industry and the media (etc.) should have higher standards. This can only happen, however, if enough people demand it. When it comes to the serious exchange of ideas, I would be much more tolerant. |
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