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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 12, 2017 8:53:28 GMT
Look, I'm just going to be rudely blunt - if there weren't so many junkies and scumbags allowed to wander town with ease, people would have a lot more respect for it. In a lot of parts of town you'll find the absolute dregs of society not-so-subtly talking about buying drugs, clearly off their heads slowly moving about like zombies, harassing people at bus stops for "change" (they're always fairly intimidating looking guys who do it too, and some look like they're dying for their next fix - overly-sweaty skin and aggressively miserable expressions on their faces), and probably other things besides I can't think of now. Only on Sunday I was walking by a bus stop when some guy asked me for change. I barely glanced at him and shook my head. He then tried to walk closer to me, almost as if he was going to block my path, so I shot him an unfriendly look which caused him to make an awkward laugh before backing off. Another day while walking to my bus stop, I ended up walking a guy that was acting really weird and I assume was on drugs (in fact, I think I saw him another day too acting the same way.) He kept walking strange, his trousers were sagged to around his thighs, he made strange faces at a lot of people who walked by him, and when I got to the stop he got into a fight with the actual bus stop itself. He also dropped a load of pamphlets, so I'm not sure what that was all about. To make matters worse, a lot of these people are allowed to use public transport, which makes people feel even worse because then you're in an enclosed space with them. Anyway, long-rant-short, it may not solve anything, but if we had less scumbags wandering the streets of Dublin, I guarantee things would at least be better. Who could be bothered with a town that seems like a beacon for some of the worst people this country has to offer? Besides that, everyone knows that if you were to get into trouble with one of them and get injured, the courts in this country would fail to give them a decent punishment; yet if I knocked the head off one of them in self-defence, then all Hell would break loose. Antaine, I completely agree. There was some discussion on this forum a while back about how cities are more hostile places now, people don't help each other, etc. Yes, as a Christian I do feel SLIGHTLY conflicted about simply walking past people who ask for change, but the scale of the situation in Dublin is ridiculous now. If you stand still in the city centre for any length of time, especially at a bus stop, you are likely to get it-- and I don't really believe it's people who are genuinely indigent, most of the time. In fact, it's now the case that it routinely happens when I'm leaving or entering my local Supervalu in Ballymun. And I know the Jesuit would rub his hands and talk about social deprivation and the unseen struggles that everybody faces and taking off your sandals before the holy ground of the Other, but really, I think that's all poppycock. There's a point at which anti-social behaviour is simply anti-social behaviour and should be treated as such. I see no conflict between that view and my Christian belief that everybody is made in the image of God.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 12, 2017 8:58:11 GMT
I was actually shocked when I visited Dublin some years ago and I couldn't go five steps without stepping over hundreds of gum pieces plastered all over the footpaths, the class division is egregious, even by my traditionalist and monarchist standards, when there is no real actual 'class' about them (class divisions here in the North are obvious but never stated openly, both rich and poor golf at the same golf clubs for example, but maybe that's my countryside bias talking here). servantofthechief, what did you mean by the statement that "class division is egregious", exactly? The thing is, I feel myself in complete agreement with you, but when I ask myself how this manifests, I'm not really able to think of anything. It's just an impression. What specifically gave you that impression? (i'm sure you'e right, by the way.) I should clarify-- the above statement was from servantofthechief and not Classical Republican, as it seems from the way the quotations are nested.
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Oct 12, 2017 11:54:24 GMT
Horace Vernet observed that in order to have a perfect republic, one must first breed perfect republicans. The wisdom here is in the corollary: it is not possible to breed perfect republicans; therefore, one should never expect to have a perfect republic.
Man is fallen. Govern accordingly.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 12, 2017 11:59:54 GMT
Horace Vernet observed that in order to have a perfect republic, one must first breed perfect republicans. The wisdom here is in the corollary: it is not possible to breed perfect republicans; therefore, one should never expect to have a perfect republic. Man is fallen. Govern accordingly. It seems to me that people tend to veer to and from the two extremes; the notion that "it's the system, man!", and (as Shaw once bluntly put it), you have to change society before you can change yourself; or, contrariwise, the position of Samuel Johnson: How small, of all that human hearts endure, That part which laws or kings can cause or cure. Still to ourselves in every place consign'd, Our own felicity we make or find. I think the truth lies between these extremes. I think there are some laws which are all-important for the preservation of social virtue, such as the presumption of innocence. But that we can't go beyond a fairly limited boundary when it comes to creating human well-being or "social justice". Apologies for straying from the topic.
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Post by Stephen on Oct 12, 2017 14:40:40 GMT
I hear Dublin is the second City of the Empire. People use to brag about this. I do
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Post by servantofthechief on Oct 12, 2017 18:21:38 GMT
servantofthechief, what did you mean by the statement that "class division is egregious", exactly? The thing is, I feel myself in complete agreement with you, but when I ask myself how this manifests, I'm not really able to think of anything. It's just an impression. What specifically gave you that impression? (i'm sure you'e right, by the way.) I should clarify-- the above statement was from servantofthechief and not Classical Republican, as it seems from the way the quotations are nested. The way this site doesn't allow you to edit quote bubbles really ticks me off but thats another matter. In any case maybe its my bias, maybe I am naive and just haven't run into many upper classers here in the North, or maybe I am just blind, (for the sake of argument I am distinguishing between Catholic and Protestant upper classers, generally speaking there'd be next to no situation outside of professional encounters where I'd regularly meet with Protestant upper classers, so take from that what you will), but for context I am squarely middle class as far as Northern Catholic Culchies go. Detached two storey house out in the country, family has multiple cars, etc. Mostly, generally speaking, rich people out here are not terribly obvious bar the modern day Folleys that tend to be the new houses they build, but by and large many of our upper classers are by default working class or middle class men and women who earned their way to success through actual hard work (and a few family connections, lets be honest, everybody does it and its necessary to get around these days. The North is particularly notable for it though, especially in Law which is my balliwick, can't get a foot in the door as I have no one on the inside and not good enough for anyone to take a chance on me without one). This is why I say its not terribly obvious of class divergences up here because generally speaking the lawyer and the doctor lives next door to the brick layer and the lorry driver. But the divergences are still there, like I said, I am middle class and I live out in a detached house in the country, nothing like actual, physical separation to remind you that you have a king of bubble surrounding your perception of things, but at the same time there is precisely zero need for anyone to be made conscious of the class differences either. My experiences in Dublin are from a few years ago (around about the time that movie of Les Miserables came out. Me and some friends had went to see it because the three of us had taken part in the first production of Les Miserables in the entirety of Northern Ireland in school, and its one of my most favourite plays, which is ironic when you consider the source material it was drawn from) and I wasn't really as cognisant of things then as I am now, but I do recall the statue of Molly Malone being brought from one street, which was on the 'poor' side of Dublin to another end which was closer to the richer end of things, precisely because it was a famous statue and it seemed at the time it was purely done for prestige purposes and to draw tourists to that part of Dublin rather than the other I think. I can't recall if it was moved before I went or after. Another experience was when I was duped into signing up for a charity, yes I am a sucker, sue me, and I recall vividly a man with a suitcase hurriedly passing by a charity tout who tried to get his attention and the man, in front of Everybody, told the charity worker to F off and accused them of scamming people of their money. Which I now know to A) is more or less the truth and B) now have an idea of just how bad things must have been in Dublin socially for that sort of thing to just happen. Maybe its my northern sensibilities but actually just calling out a charity like that in public was shocking to me. Thankfully I don't think I ever ran into any of the scangers everyone else here is talking about, or maybe I just didn't notice them, so I can't comment on that, but neither did I meet too many 'working class' Dubs, you know the real sort of Dub's Dub, I am not sure if that's because I wasn't in the right areas or what. The only real 'upper classers' I ran into were, hilariously, the Freemasons when a guy on a motorcycle, rather creepily, spotted me and my friends as we were walking past the old Free mason orphanage, don't know how he saw us with all those parked vans in the way. And I only guess its was upper class-ish because of the interior of the building and the museum in the back, we never actually got to talk to any of them. I did spot one piece of Working class Dublin culture, the taxi rank in the middle of O'Connell's street. There is a small shrine behind a glass box standing there dedicated to Christ the king erected by the taximen of Dublin in ages past. It warmed my heart to see such an act of folk piety in the middle of Dublin.
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Post by cato on Oct 12, 2017 19:04:00 GMT
There are people in rural Ireland who dump rubbish on beaches and scenic areas. There is raw sewage dumped into most rural sea towns. Dublin has no monopoly on people who have no self respect or local pride. There is class prejudice often more insidious and nasty in small towns and villages. Your neighbours can be quick to point out your family's pedigree if you "are getting too ahead of yourself" In Dublin you can choose to avoid class snobbery.
Much of the commentary so far has been a stereotypical outpouring of prejudice. I am all for local pride and patriotism. That does not need to involve running down somewhere else. Why any one feels the need to "hate" a place is beyond me. It is not compulsory to live in the Pale. No community is perfect.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 12, 2017 19:36:09 GMT
I can only speak for myself, but I don't "hate" Dublin. In fact, I don't think that most people actually hate Dublin, though perhaps they may be resentful towards the concentration of power there.
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Post by servantofthechief on Oct 12, 2017 20:04:41 GMT
There are people in rural Ireland who dump rubbish on beaches and scenic areas. There is raw sewage dumped into most rural sea towns. Dublin has no monopoly on people who have no self respect or local pride. There is class prejudice often more insidious and nasty in small towns and villages. Your neighbours can be quick to point out your family's pedigree if you "are getting too ahead of yourself" In Dublin you can choose to avoid class snobbery. Much of the commentary so far has been a stereotypical outpouring of prejudice. I am all for local pride and patriotism. That does not need to involve running down somewhere else. Why any one feels the need to "hate" a place is beyond me. It is not compulsory to live in the Pale. No community is perfect. I don't think its a case of hatred as much as it is one of concentration. Yes there is awfulness anywhere else in Ireland, but its particularly egregious in Dublin both because of sheer size and scale but also because, as the capital, its particularly bad form. If there is any resentment its resentment at the overhwleming concentration and centralisation around Dublin not only of Political power, but economic. So you have this toxic mix of sucking all the economic potential away from the surrounding areas and other parts of Ireland, on top of holding a cultural and political monopoly on the rest of the country with the elites of the city and society in Dublin openly derogatory of the rest of the Island and its culture. And on top of all of this, the lack of civic pride and the relative terribleness of the streets just compound the matter even more. I don't hate Dublin, but it is a very sick city.
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Post by cato on Oct 12, 2017 23:17:04 GMT
Is there any area or community in Ireland that is healthy?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 12, 2017 23:43:52 GMT
Mallow, I've heard.
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Post by cato on Oct 13, 2017 10:27:24 GMT
From the Advent of the Copper Beeches by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
"Do you mind Watson" said he "that it is one of the curses of a mind like mine that I must look at everything with reference to my own special subject. You look at these scattered houses and are impressed by their beauty. I look at them and the only thought that comes to me is a feeling of isolation and of the impunity with which crime may be committed there".
"Good heavens" I cried " Who would associate crime with these dear old homesteads"?
"They always fill me with a certain horror. It is my belief , Watson , founded on my experience that the lowest , vilest alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the smiling and beautiful countryside".
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Post by John on Aug 14, 2023 4:47:21 GMT
I think "us and them" mentalities are great. It builds communities and allegiances! As a lifelong Dubliner, I DO see all non-Dubliners as culchies, boggers and farmers, but that's a very positive thing in my eyes. As a Northside Dubliner, I have to deal with the "scanger", which is an Irish version of an Orc, but more obnoxious. Some of my friends call them Cro-Magnons. May be worth a thread in themselves. Dublin IS the centre of moral decay in Ireland. No getting away from it.
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Post by John on Aug 14, 2023 4:50:01 GMT
It's not that we all Hate Dublin it's that Dublin is to the Rest of Ireland what England is to Ireland. Arrogant. I don't hate Dubliners, opposite that's why I'm moving there on Friday. What I do hate is being called a Farmer when I've never seen a farm and have never left a town.
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Post by cato on Aug 14, 2023 22:19:11 GMT
It's not that we all Hate Dublin it's that Dublin is to the Rest of Ireland what England is to Ireland. Arrogant. I don't hate Dubliners, opposite that's why I'm moving there on Friday. What I do hate is being called a Farmer when I've never seen a farm and have never left a town. Welcome John. I am a culchie living in the big smoke for over two decades. Still have my brogue and am regularly asked "where are you really from?"
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