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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 5, 2017 16:30:16 GMT
Who would you name the greatest Irishman or Irishwoman of all time?
In my view, it is W.B. Yeats. I consider him not only the greatest of Irish poets, but the greatest of English-language poets, ever.
Patrick Pearse might be my second nomination.
After that, I'm not sure. There are so many saints, so many writers, so many patriots. None of them seem to occupy a pre-eminence similar to the two I've mentioned already.
As a Catholic, I feel a bit bad that I don't name St. Patrick. (I'm not going to quibble over whether someone is Irish or not-- if there's any reason to consider them Irish, they're in.) I'm certainly very drawn to his personality as expressed in his writings. But I suppose I just don't find him as fascinating as W.B. Yeats or Patrick Pearse, perhaps because we know so little about him for a fact.
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Post by kj on Aug 5, 2017 17:13:10 GMT
At the moment for me it would be Pearse. I only read Ruth Dudley Edwards' biography of him this year and in spite of the fact she disapproved of his politics, the integrity and dedication of the man shone through. Plus he was incredibly fair-minded, as well as being a great educator.
When I was young and impressionable I had the usual hero-worship for Collins, whose courage and dedication to Ireland I still unreservedly admire, but I am coming to admire De Valera more and more. His low reputation is one of the greatest travesties of our time, in my opinion.
Here was a man who was a teacher, who put his life on the line for Ireland, campaigned for her freedom relentlessly, went on to distinguish himself at the League of Nations, was one of the few to condemn the rise of Fascism at the time (I know, I know, the condolence book for Hitler etc.) and so on.
Plus, unlike our avaricious crew today, he lived a personally frugal life and was terrified of ending in destitution in old age, after all he had done for Ireland!
And contrary to the mob, I have no problem whatsoever with his view of Ireland and her comely maidens dancing at the crossroads!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 5, 2017 17:36:38 GMT
I agree with you about the fair-mindedness. He was the least fanatical "fanatic" who ever lived, in my view. For instance, he was strongly criticized by a particular priest (I forget his name) for using models drawn from modern literature for his short stories. Pearse's replies to this critic were extremely gracious. Also, his determination to let his pupils develop according to their own gifts and natures, rather than imposing his ideas on them. Anyone who reads his writings must be baffled by the image of a repressed nutter which is so often presented in modern articles and books. Humanity, generosity and a keen sense of humour radiate from his works.
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Post by kj on Aug 5, 2017 17:46:52 GMT
He was a hugely complicated figure, which makes it easier for the slander merchants to pigeon-hole him as a blood-obsessed fanatic.
One thing I found really moving was the motivation behind his decision to surrender in 1916. When they were holed up in Moore St Pearse was looking out a window and saw a young family leave their home with raised arms to try and get to the safety of the British lines. They were shot and killed instantly. Pearse was horrified, and signed the surrender order against the wishes of the other leaders. (I know the obvious riposte is that he had no problem putting them in the line of danger to begin with, and I concede that).
In regard to the blood sacrifice thing, I think it worth pointing out the Rising as originally conceived was intended to be a far larger nationwide affair, with the expected German arms. It was not intended as just a pointless blood sacrifice, as Pearse's critics continually claim.
If somehow Pearse had lived and become a leader of an independent Ireland, I think we would have had a chance of building a country far less susceptible to Anglo-American corrosion, but I could just be indulging in nonsense!
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Post by cato on Aug 5, 2017 18:46:50 GMT
I am going to cheat and name several candidates in different categories though. I am trying to look at their impact and why they can be considered great.
Maolsheachlann mentions St Patrick and in terms of religious impact and culture in Ireland and abroad via the missionary movements Patrick has global significance. St Patrick's day has gone global for better or for worse. He is also the father of Irish literature.The first Irishman with feelings too.
Greatest politician of the 20th century was Sir James Craig. He was the only major figure who actually got all that he wanted. Canny and determined he got his own state and held onto it.Not a nice man but a sucessful one.
Greatest Fenian prize goes to John Holland the father of the Submarine. In two world wars the u boat almost destroyed the might of the British Empire . Thats significant. Modern nuclear subs have unimaginable destructive potential.
Greatest Irish woman is Kitty O Shea who changed Irish history.
Greatest soldier Arthur Wellesley who as the Iron Duke defeated Napoleon the Great. If you defeat a colossus what are you? Not content with that he becomes the second Irish holder of the office of prime minister and emancipates the catholics of Britain and Ireland. He also gave his name to the Welly once a part of every rural man's footwear.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 5, 2017 19:01:44 GMT
All good nominations, Cato.
In the religious field, Frank Duff might be my nomination.
I'm not sure who I would name as greatest Irishwoman. Edel Quinn, perhaps.
I'm not a member of the Legion of Mary, I just find both those figures extremely impressive. Evangelization is the great challenge facing Christians in our time.
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angelo
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by angelo on Aug 5, 2017 21:23:10 GMT
All good nominations, Cato. In the religious field, Frank Duff might be my nomination. I'm not sure who I would name as greatest Irishwoman. Edel Quinn, perhaps. I'm not a member of the Legion of Mary, I just find both those figures extremely impressive. Evangelization is the great challenge facing Christians in our time. I was thinking of Frank Duff as well. There are parts of Africa where he's probably the only known Irish man.
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Post by kj on Aug 6, 2017 7:16:50 GMT
Seeing as how Cato mentioned 'Greatest Fenian' I feel obliged to put in a word for James Stephens, in my opinion the most unjustly neglected figure in Irish history.
He is the man who founded the IRB, having returned to Ireland after a period in exile following the 1848 rebellion. He traveled the country alone, a journey of over 3,000 miles on foot, covering every town and county, assessing the possibility for a revolutionary organisation. He then practically single-handedly founded the IRB, organised its cell structures and then traveled to America where he raised sufficient interest and funds from Irish Americans. He was deposed because of internal party politics and his hesitation to commit to a full rebellion in 1866. His instincts were right, as, of course, the 67 rebellion was an utter damp squib.
Of course, this will only appeal if you support the 1916 Rising, which was technically an IRB operation. It is remarkable to me how little attention or credit the Godfather behind the organisation receives.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 6, 2017 7:35:56 GMT
It's not an easy question to answer. It depends what one means by GREAT, whether the secular or religious worlds are perceived as more important, whether the person should stand out or be representative of the many. Should they be important to Ireland or the rest of the world? Two men who played important roles in forming Western Australia -aside from all the missionaries that is- wouldn't even be known in Ireland:C.Y.O'Connor protestant, engineer, the first to pipe drinking water inland& Paddy Hannan whose discovery started the gold rush.
Charles Villiers Stanford's music is immensely important to classical musicians, not many people know he was born in Dublin. Or the Duke of Wellington. Not many people would think of Lord Kitchener as being Irish. Or Ninette de Valois.
Anyway my rough list: St Colmcille St Columban Brian Bórú Lorcán O'Tuarhail Grainne O'Malley (probably for the eccentricity) Ambrose O'Higgins St Oliver Plunkett and/or Bl Dermot O'Hurley Jonathon Swift Theobald Wolfe Tone Daniel O'Connell Catherine MacAuley (but several religious founders have had a big worldwide impact-Edmund Rice,Nano Nagle, Mary Aikenhead) Michael Collins and/or Éamon deValera
Overall: I think I'd go for St Colmcille
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Post by ZenoOfCitium on Aug 6, 2017 7:41:42 GMT
No mention of Edmund Burke yet!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 6, 2017 8:47:03 GMT
It's not an easy question to answer. It depends what one means by GREAT, whether the secular or religious worlds are perceived as more important, whether the person should stand out or be representative of the many. Should they be important to Ireland or the rest of the world? Two men who played important roles in forming Western Australia -aside from all the missionaries that is- wouldn't even be known in Ireland:C.Y.O'Connor protestant, engineer, the first to pipe drinking water inland& Paddy Hannan whose discovery started the gold rush. Charles Villiers Stanford's music is immensely important to classical musicians, not many people know he was born in Dublin. Or the Duke of Wellington. Not many people would think of Lord Kitchener as being Irish. Or Ninette de Valois. Anyway my rough list: St Colmcille St Columban Brian Bórú Lorcán O'Tuarhail Grainne O'Malley (probably for the eccentricity) Ambrose O'Higgins St Oliver Plunkett and/or Bl Dermot O'Hurley Jonathon Swift Theobald Wolfe Tone Daniel O'Connell Catherine MacAuley (but several religious founders have had a big worldwide impact-Edmund Rice,Nano Nagle, Mary Aikenhead) Michael Collins and/or Éamon deValera Overall: I think I'd go for St Colmcille You can interpret "great" or "Irish" however you like. This forum is a spin-off of the Irish Catholic Forum, which is great, but I must admit that the haggling over terms drove me crazy. Professor Joad of Brains Trust fame became well-known for his preamble: "Well, it all depends what you mean by..." Personally I think language is inherently ambiguous and if we were to seriously "define our terms" we would never get past a single sentence! So anyone can discuss terminology as much as they like, but for my part, if I don't explicitly define something, then feel free to interpret it in any (reasonable) way. It's like the term "conservative". Naturally this word comes in for discussion, but ANY such word would have its limitations. (Actually, that gives me an idea for a pinned post...) People who say, "I don't like to be limited by labels" drive me mad. I want to follow them around for a single day and demand that they consistently don't use labels. See how they do. OK, sorry for that digression. Good list, Séamus. I must admit I don't know who Ambrose O'Higgins is. I will rectify that as soon as I post this.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 6, 2017 9:44:55 GMT
Good list, Séamus. I must admit I don't know who Ambrose O'Higgins is. I will rectify that as soon as I post this. I wanted to mention also the man who is often called The Father of the American Navy, but I can't think of his name
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 6, 2017 10:37:59 GMT
Is it Pádraig Ó Bád?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 6, 2017 10:39:27 GMT
The internet says it's John Barry. Never heard of him, either.
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Post by Séamus on Aug 6, 2017 11:11:35 GMT
Is it Pádraig Ó Bád? Is that a joke? Yes, it was Barry. President Eisenhower gave his birthplace of Wexford a sculpture in the 50s
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