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Post by MourningIreland on Aug 6, 2017 22:19:15 GMT
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Post by servantofthechief on Aug 7, 2017 2:12:09 GMT
Remove Xenu.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Aug 7, 2017 8:30:39 GMT
I've actually sometimes wondered if we should be more protective of Scientologists. Are they being persecuted for their religious beliefs? I realize this may seem like a strange question, but being a Catholic my train of thought is: many persecutors of the Church were absolutely convinced that it was corrupt and subversive from top to bottom. I have no doubt that Hubbard was a charlatan and that Scientology is run by crooks, but surely many ordinary members are completely sincere, if deluded.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 9, 2018 16:18:04 GMT
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Post by Stephen on Jan 10, 2018 8:18:12 GMT
I've actually sometimes wondered if we should be more protective of Scientologists. Are they being persecuted for their religious beliefs? I realize this may seem like a strange question, but being a Catholic my train of thought is: many persecutors of the Church were absolutely convinced that it was corrupt and subversive from top to bottom. I have no doubt that Hubbard was a charlatan and that Scientology is run by crooks, but surely many ordinary members are completely sincere, if deluded. Sounds like Mental gymnastics to me. You have stated the founder and leadership of this false religion are crooks and charlatans. A Catholic point of view is that Our Lord and God will not have any false Gods Before him and we need to convert the world. As a proponent of CATHOLICISM as the state Religion. I say put every road block in there way for promoting sin and falsehood.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 10, 2018 10:03:18 GMT
Religious coercion has never worked very well. The history of Ireland is a good example of that.
To me, it's more a question "do as you would be done by". Catholics know what it's like to suffer religious persecution and the lack of religious freedom. We should sympathise with others who suffer the same thing (even as we try to convert them).
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Post by Stephen on Jan 10, 2018 11:01:31 GMT
Religious coercion has never worked very well. The history of Ireland is a good example of that. To me, it's more a question "do as you would be done by". Catholics know what it's like to suffer religious persecution and the lack of religious freedom. We should sympathise with others who suffer the same thing (even as we try to convert them). Well it worked very well in England. We had a discussion about why the Irish did not convert on another thread. If memory serves culture and language were a big part. I am not saying they can not gather personally in home's. The idea that Catholics should promote a false right to religious freedom makes me resentful.So called religious freedom allows the break up of western nations by foreign agents and falsehood.
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Post by cato on Jan 12, 2018 12:30:45 GMT
Religious coercion has never worked very well. The history of Ireland is a good example of that. To me, it's more a question "do as you would be done by". Catholics know what it's like to suffer religious persecution and the lack of religious freedom. We should sympathise with others who suffer the same thing (even as we try to convert them). Well it worked very well in England. We had a discussion about why the Irish did not convert on another thread. If memory serves culture and language were a big part. I am not saying they can not gather personally in home's. The idea that Catholics should promote a false right to religious freedom makes me resentful.So called religious freedom allows the break up of western nations by foreign agents and falsehood. Prudentially the Church benefits from religious freedom . There are virtually no catholic rulers/states remaining but there are many many places where the church faces persecution from Islam Hinduism and Secularism . We can't object to that real persecution and claim the theoretical right to do the same if and when we get the upper hand.
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Post by irishconfederate on Jan 14, 2018 2:33:54 GMT
The Catholic Faith espouses ethical/moral positions which can be shown by reason to be good and sensible for man to live by. Other belief systems are made up of not simply different beliefs but other ethical/moral positions. It is wrong if one can do something about it to let people proselytize beliefs that are coupled with scandalous and immoral positions.
With regard to proselytising belief systems that don't flout the natural law, as a Catholic I would be happy for them to have freedom to practice their religion to its fullest excepting the freedom to proselytise. If Muslim countries would afford Catholics to live their Catholicism fully but also forbid Catholic proselytising I would consider that a logical and sensible position for them to hold and fair.
I think there's a grey area though. If Muslims and Jews agree not to proselytise, Jews don't anyhow, and want to get divorced or have more than one wife then even if it could be shown that this is contrary to the natural law, I think as its not that scandalous, they should be allowed this freedom.
That's what I'm thinking
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Post by cato on Jan 14, 2018 13:25:32 GMT
The Catholic Faith espouses ethical/moral positions which can be shown by reason to be good and sensible for man to live by. Other belief systems are made up of not simply different beliefs but other ethical/moral positions. It is wrong if one can do something about it to let people proselytize beliefs that are coupled with scandalous and immoral positions. With regard to proselytising belief systems that don't flout the natural law, as a Catholic I would be happy for them to have freedom to practice their religion to its fullest excepting the freedom to proselytise. If Muslim countries would afford Catholics to live their Catholicism fully but also forbid Catholic proselytising I would consider that a logical and sensible position for them to hold and fair. I think there's a grey area though. If Muslims and Jews agree not to proselytise, Jews don't anyhow, and want to get divorced or have more than one wife then even if it could be shown that this is contrary to the natural law, I think as its not that scandalous, they should be allowed this freedom. That's what I'm thinking But surely the whole point of religious freedom is the ability to "proselytise" especially for catholicism ?(contrary to the thoughts of the current pope) Go forth and convert all nations... If a religion doesn't have this freedom it is merely tolerated.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 14, 2018 14:14:28 GMT
I agree, Cato. Religious freedom without the freedom to seek converts is not freedom at all. I realize that saying this will unleash a flood of texts from bygone Popes on me. Well, rightly or wrongly, the Church today seems to be of the same mind as me. Whether this is a rupture in teaching is another matter. By the light of my own natural reason (which may indeed be faulty), religious freedom seems like a natural implication of human dignity.
Surely Catholics should be sufficiently confident in their own beliefs to accept a free marketplace of ideas?
To be fair, Pope Francis has emphasized evangelisation, although what evangelisation actually means to him is a bit of mystery. I think it means smiling a lot.
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Post by cato on Jan 14, 2018 19:10:03 GMT
I agree, Cato. Religious freedom without the freedom to seek converts is not freedom at all. I realize that saying this will unleash a flood of texts from bygone Popes on me. Well, rightly or wrongly, the Church today seems to be of the same mind as me. Whether this is a rupture in teaching is another matter. By the light of my own natural reason (which may indeed be faulty), religious freedom seems like a natural implication of human dignity. Surely Catholics should be sufficiently confident in their own beliefs to accept a free marketplace of ideas? To be fair, Pope Francis has emphasized evangelisation, although what evangelisation actually means to him is a bit of mystery. I think it means smiling a lot. I keep getting visions of that cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland though.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 14, 2018 19:14:41 GMT
I fear that, like the Cheshire cat, the only thing left of the Catholic Church will soon be the regulation perma-grin.
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Post by Stephen on Jan 15, 2018 15:53:04 GMT
I agree, Cato. Religious freedom without the freedom to seek converts is not freedom at all. I realize that saying this will unleash a flood of texts from bygone Popes on me. Well, rightly or wrongly, the Church today seems to be of the same mind as me. Whether this is a rupture in teaching is another matter. By the light of my own natural reason (which may indeed be faulty), religious freedom seems like a natural implication of human dignity. Surely Catholics should be sufficiently confident in their own beliefs to accept a free marketplace of ideas? To be fair, Pope Francis has emphasized evangelisation, although what evangelisation actually means to him is a bit of mystery. I think it means smiling a lot. Holy Mother Church is of one mind, Which can not be changed. The mistakes and errors of recent Popes, Bishops, Priests, religious and laity in presenting doctrine is heinous. The damaged caused is incalculable and religious freedom is just one of them.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Jan 15, 2018 15:59:36 GMT
I agree, Cato. Religious freedom without the freedom to seek converts is not freedom at all. I realize that saying this will unleash a flood of texts from bygone Popes on me. Well, rightly or wrongly, the Church today seems to be of the same mind as me. Whether this is a rupture in teaching is another matter. By the light of my own natural reason (which may indeed be faulty), religious freedom seems like a natural implication of human dignity. Surely Catholics should be sufficiently confident in their own beliefs to accept a free marketplace of ideas? To be fair, Pope Francis has emphasized evangelisation, although what evangelisation actually means to him is a bit of mystery. I think it means smiling a lot. Holy Mother Church is of one mind, Which can not be changed. The mistakes and errors of recent Popes, Bishops, Priests, religious and laity in presenting doctrinal is heinous. The damaged caused is incalculable and religious freedom is just one of them. The problem is that secularisation has already begun before the Second Vatican Council. I'm quite sympathetic to your argument in many respects, but I think it can be overstated. The Council was actually responding to a changed situation. The era of confessional states was over anyway.
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