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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 2, 2017 17:33:52 GMT
The Earl of Fingal would make an excellent King and he would restore full sovereignity and defeat the forces of the EU without a doubt. Maolsheachlann is a popular Irish Kingly name too. Couldn't agree more.
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Post by eoghan7 on Nov 18, 2017 5:52:36 GMT
Here's to all who are serious about a restored monarchical system in Ireland!
A few things:
1) It is entirely possible, but only if people want it. And to want it, they must first recognize the loss of soveriegnty and the national danger posed by the EU. And they must also see that the Republic will always give up the interests of Ireland to outsiders and banks. Only a non-elected, Christian monarch will love Ireland enough to defend her properly.
2) It ought to be first approached as a restoration of Ireland's clans, with an aim to rebuild the Gaelic order. This will have deep appeal to many- even those with Norman and British surnames, as they can rally and form a modern clan leadership. Once the clans are in place, two councils must be formed: a council of the hereditary chiefs of their Names, with seniority to those modern clan leaders whose ancestors held the reigns of Gaelic kingship; a House of Lords in effect, using their choice of tanistry or primogeniture. The most capable member of this council would be nominated for eventual High Kingship, when ready. And a second council composed of local leaders who step forward and are appointed by their local chief to aid in governance- not quite a House of Commons, but more like a Cabinet for each chief. This would form the basis of effective governance for a series of local, hereditary fifedoms, with anciet roots and modern capabilities. This will take time.
3) A Constitution would remain in the place of the High Kingship, so as to prevent infighting af first. It would require a national army and navy to be organized, by the seniormost elected Lord. The Constitution would limit the powers of the High King mainly to preventing outside aggression and influence. To battle for the High Kingship would be to forsake it, as per the Constitution. Gov't use of Gaeilge will be mandatory. Coinage will replace cattle and cumals as currency.
4) Adherence to Christianity must be stressed, as in the Constitution and by the oaths sworn by each clan chief. But here I would insist on Orthodox Christianity, as it was native to Ireland during our great golden era of intense aacetic monasticism and learning. Never forget that Rome forged the Donation of Constantine, which claimed all islands into the pope's hands, and then an English pope gave this island to Henry II, on that false basis. Nothing will heal the divide between Roman Catholics, Protestants and seculars better than Orthodoxy, which is the great panacea of original Christianity. We would also encourage our Saxon neighbors to return to Orthodoxy again as well, before the Franco-Normans brought their Gregorian Reforms. The only Church will likely survive this secular century will be Orthodoxy, and this will testify to its veracity.
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Post by rogerbuck on Nov 18, 2017 11:15:03 GMT
I know I haven't been here much lately. Still, I'm surprised I completely missed this thread.
And - strangely, even to myself - it _thrills_ me to see it.
Strangely thrills me ... What is this numinous hold on the Catholic imagination of the Monarchy? Even in a country with such an entrenched Republican tradition as this one?
I can't say much more now. But I'm coming back to this forum when I can and will be strangely, numinously interested in any more anyone has to say ...
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 18, 2017 11:40:40 GMT
Here's to all who are serious about a restored monarchical system in Ireland! A few things: 1) It is entirely possible, but only if people want it. And to want it, they must first recognize the loss of soveriegnty and the national danger posed by the EU. And they must also see that the Republic will always give up the interests of Ireland to outsiders and banks. Only a non-elected, Christian monarch will love Ireland enough to defend her properly. 2) It ought to be first approached as a restoration of Ireland's clans, with an aim to rebuild the Gaelic order. This will have deep appeal to many- even those with Norman and British surnames, as they can rally and form a modern clan leadership. Once the clans are in place, two councils must be formed: a council of the hereditary chiefs of their Names, with seniority to those modern clan leaders whose ancestors held the reigns of Gaelic kingship; a House of Lords in effect, using their choice of tanistry or primogeniture. The most capable member of this council would be nominated for eventual High Kingship, when ready. And a second council composed of local leaders who step forward and are appointed by their local chief to aid in governance- not quite a House of Commons, but more like a Cabinet for each chief. This would form the basis of effective governance for a series of local, hereditary fifedoms, with anciet roots and modern capabilities. This will take time. 3) A Constitution would remain in the place of the High Kingship, so as to prevent infighting af first. It would require a national army and navy to be organized, by the seniormost elected Lord. The Constitution would limit the powers of the High King mainly to preventing outside aggression and influence. To battle for the High Kingship would be to forsake it, as per the Constitution. Gov't use of Gaeilge will be mandatory. Coinage will replace cattle and cumals as currency. 4) Adherence to Christianity must be stressed, as in the Constitution and by the oaths sworn by each clan chief. But here I would insist on Orthodox Christianity, as it was native to Ireland during our great golden era of intense aacetic monasticism and learning. Never forget that Rome forged the Donation of Constantine, which claimed all islands into the pope's hands, and then an English pope gave this island to Henry II, on that false basis. Nothing will heal the divide between Roman Catholics, Protestants and seculars better than Orthodoxy, which is the great panacea of original Christianity. We would also encourage our Saxon neighbors to return to Orthodoxy again as well, before the Franco-Normans brought their Gregorian Reforms. The only Church will likely survive this secular century will be Orthodoxy, and this will testify to its veracity. Welcome, Eoghan, and thanks for that. Too much for me to respond to right now, but I do especially like your idea of restoring the Irish clans!
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Post by servantofthechief on Nov 18, 2017 16:26:12 GMT
I know I haven't been here much lately. Still, I'm surprised I completely missed this thread. And - strangely, even to myself - it _thrills_ me to see it. Strangely thrills me ... What is this numinous hold on the Catholic imagination of the Monarchy? Even in a country with such an entrenched Republican tradition as this one? I can't say much more now. But I'm coming back to this forum when I can and will be strangely, numinously interested in any more anyone has to say ... I think in all honestly it just resonates deeply with the Irish character. The Irish have never been naturally serfs, during the Christian Kingship period, we more or less did away with Slavery, but every man was a free man, because he was a clansman, and thus he was a cousin of his chief, who was a cousin of the king and so on. The differences between classes was acknowledged and obvious but at the same time, the king was your uncle, so the familial sense was very strong. Rightly or wrongly this led to the seemingly fratricidal conflicts for kingships that did go on in Ireland in those days, part of the reason why the Spanish King Philip refused the idea of being King of Ireland when approached by a body of Irish nobles despite loving Ireland (the Spanish at the time believed as the Irish did at that time, that the Irish celts came from Spain as the Milésians according to the Book of Invasions, so the Spanish saw them as blood kindred as well as Brothers in Christ) was because of the fratricidal feuding of their nobility. There is a very good reason why the seemingly pointless diversion in Chestertons epic poem about Saxon England resonated so strongly with so many people, because it reflected a strange truth about the Irish character. "For the great Gaels of Ireland, are the men that God made mad, for all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad." Their understanding of Catholicism certainly reinforces the notion in our roots. God Himself is a King, He is The king, and so was reflected in the old Irish habit of referring to Jesus as 'The High King of Heaven', envisioning Him in His proper role of being above all powers in the Highest of the Highests. So the idea of this God who is all Great is also so near to your Heart as Savior and King, strikes a very deep cord indeed.
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Post by cato on Nov 19, 2017 13:28:24 GMT
Should we rename this thread the barking mad fantasy political wish list thread?
There is zero support for this in Ireland.
The Gaelic political system was deeply flawed. One of the reasons why a relatively weak England defeated the Gaelic Irish was the constant infighting among the Irish aristocracy. Because of a chaotic inheritance system much blood was spilt on internal family feuds rather than defending Ireland against foreign invaders.
Monarchical Ireland is dead and gone. Good riddance too.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 19, 2017 15:39:08 GMT
Should we rename this thread the barking mad fantasy political wish list thread? There is zero support for this in Ireland. The Gaelic political system was deeply flawed. One of the reasons why a relatively weak England defeated the Gaelic Irish was the constant infighting among the Irish aristocracy. Because of a chaotic inheritance system much blood was spilt on internal family feuds rather than defending Ireland against foreign invaders. Monarchical Ireland is dead and gone. Good riddance too. I agree it's not very practical, but it's valid as an orientation...I don't expect we will see an Irish monarchy in our lifetime, but there is so much rhetoric about "a true republic" in Ireland that I think it's good to undercut that by boldly opposing republicanism. As for the clan system, just because it was defeated doesn't make it worthy of esteem, in my view. It lasted long enough. It's a genuinely native system and I think it's worth at least contemplating.
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Post by Young Ireland on Nov 20, 2017 19:33:48 GMT
Should we rename this thread the barking mad fantasy political wish list thread? There is zero support for this in Ireland. The Gaelic political system was deeply flawed. One of the reasons why a relatively weak England defeated the Gaelic Irish was the constant infighting among the Irish aristocracy. Because of a chaotic inheritance system much blood was spilt on internal family feuds rather than defending Ireland against foreign invaders. Monarchical Ireland is dead and gone. Good riddance too. I agree it's not very practical, but it's valid as an orientation...I don't expect we will see an Irish monarchy in our lifetime, but there is so much rhetoric about "a true republic" in Ireland that I think it's good to undercut that by boldly opposing republicanism. As for the clan system, just because it was defeated doesn't make it worthy of esteem, in my view. It lasted long enough. It's a genuinely native system and I think it's worth at least contemplating. I think that focusing on what we would like is a distraction from where we are now. We are called to live in 2017, not 1717 or 1017, and we need to make the best of what we have. This also means acknowledging the flaws of previous forms of government as well as our present one.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 20, 2017 20:34:04 GMT
I agree it's not very practical, but it's valid as an orientation...I don't expect we will see an Irish monarchy in our lifetime, but there is so much rhetoric about "a true republic" in Ireland that I think it's good to undercut that by boldly opposing republicanism. As for the clan system, just because it was defeated doesn't make it worthy of esteem, in my view. It lasted long enough. It's a genuinely native system and I think it's worth at least contemplating. I think that focusing on what we would like is a distraction from where we are now. We are called to live in 2017, not 1717 or 1017, and we need to make the best of what we have. This also means acknowledging the flaws of previous forms of government as well as our present one. I think we need romance as well as practicality.
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Post by servantofthechief on Nov 21, 2017 0:17:37 GMT
I agree it's not very practical, but it's valid as an orientation...I don't expect we will see an Irish monarchy in our lifetime, but there is so much rhetoric about "a true republic" in Ireland that I think it's good to undercut that by boldly opposing republicanism. As for the clan system, just because it was defeated doesn't make it worthy of esteem, in my view. It lasted long enough. It's a genuinely native system and I think it's worth at least contemplating. I think that focusing on what we would like is a distraction from where we are now. We are called to live in 2017, not 1717 or 1017, and we need to make the best of what we have. This also means acknowledging the flaws of previous forms of government as well as our present one. Honestly there is nothing wrong or impractical about bringing back the Ideal as a primer for the practical. Because if we have no ideal then no amount of raw pragmatism will be worth it in the end, we'll end up at the same situation. The Truth is, Monarchical and Clannish Ireland for all of its many manifest faults, failings and sins, was the most Catholic Nation on Earth for the better part of a thousand years. To such an extent one cardinal even praised it as the only country on Earth which never birthed a Heresy of its own. (not to say Irishmen elsewhere didn't start Heresies, I think Pelagius was an Irishman but he was off elsewhere being a heretic), one could fault it for its backwardsness but its the same fallacy other peoples apply to their ancestors without regard for context. Ireland was as resource poor then and surrounded by larger richer nations as much as it is now, and started off considerably less well off than even the Ancient Gauls for perspective with little in the way of attractive trade potential to offset our lack of resources. This is all to further the point that, like it or not, our Republic has failed us, it has failed our ancestors and it has failed our children, and it was based on a republican interpretation of our past, and if we are to reform it or replace it with something else (however unlikely anyone contemplates that possibility), we have to know what we did right in the past that kept our nation and people together for thousands of years and why that worked. And like it or not, Clannish, Monarchical Ireland worked, even when we were ruled by the British our understanding of things did not change much, all of that radical change has more or less occurred in the past century (give or take the odd rebellion inspired by the French Revolution). The point is the romance and the ideals point towards where we ought to be if nothing else, why do we have a fascination with monarchy, which if we did not, then why does every family in Ireland proudly boast their descent from ancient Gaelic kings (and practically all of us do), why did that matter? Why did our ancestors put up with crushing poverty for generations on end knowing prosperity was just an Apostasy away at any time? We need to have these discussions, because if monarchism is so out of left field for you now, it won't be ten years down the line (I would even make a hard bet with you on this, the political landscape is changing radically in terms of what people are willing to contemplate these days and thank God for it), then at the very least from bitter experience pragmatism has been a woeful failure on its own. Afterall, focusing purely on the practical is basically what has led Ireland to this sorry, mad, materialistic and money obsessed state, and refocusing on it again without romance, without a genuine ideal with which to strive for and to weigh those practicalities against, you will only end up shuffling the deck and getting more or less the same terrible hand.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 21, 2017 10:28:58 GMT
We need to have these discussions, because if monarchism is so out of left field for you now, it won't be ten years down the line (I would even make a hard bet with you on this, the political landscape is changing radically in terms of what people are willing to contemplate these days and thank God for it), then at the very least from bitter experience pragmatism has been a woeful failure on its own. Couldn't agree more, servant. Ten years ago I felt like a complete and utter throwback because I cared about things like heritage, identity, community, and tradition, when all anyone else seemed to care about was living standards and transport policy and individualism of one kind or another. I felt completely alone between the libertarianism of the right and the liberalism of the left. Now, post-UKIP, post-Brexit, post-Trump, post-New Right, post-Alt Right, the things I've always cared about are the live issues. Having said all that, I don't expect monarchism is going to become a live issue in Irish politics in our generation, but I see no reason at all not to fly that flag with pride if you believe in it. It sets the tone. A Republic is about utilitarianism and egalitarianism (which translates as resentment), while a monarchy is about love and loyalty, service and belonging. (And I should emphasise, I'm talking about a constitutional, democratic monarchy.)
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Post by Stephen on Nov 21, 2017 13:53:47 GMT
Having said all that, I don't expect monarchism is going to become a live issue in Irish politics in our generation, but I see no reason at all not to fly that flag with pride if you believe in it. It sets the tone. A Republic is about utilitarianism and egalitarianism (which translates as resentment), while a monarchy is about love and loyalty, service and belonging. (And I should emphasise, I'm talking about a constitutional, democratic monarchy.) Most movements have humble beginnings and who knows what a small group of like-minded people can do to a local community. I have tried to build my belief system on sound philosophy and theology. This is why I advocate Monarchy over other systems. Maolsheachlann why a constitutional democratic Monarchy?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 21, 2017 14:05:04 GMT
Having said all that, I don't expect monarchism is going to become a live issue in Irish politics in our generation, but I see no reason at all not to fly that flag with pride if you believe in it. It sets the tone. A Republic is about utilitarianism and egalitarianism (which translates as resentment), while a monarchy is about love and loyalty, service and belonging. (And I should emphasise, I'm talking about a constitutional, democratic monarchy.) Most movements have humble beginnings and who knows what a small group of like-minded people can do to a local community. I have tried to build my belief system on sound philosophy and theology. This is why I advocate Monarchy over other systems. Maolsheachlann why a constitutional democratic Monarchy? Attachments:
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Post by Stephen on Nov 21, 2017 14:23:38 GMT
Most movements have humble beginnings and who knows what a small group of like-minded people can do to a local community. I have tried to build my belief system on sound philosophy and theology. This is why I advocate Monarchy over other systems. Maolsheachlann why a constitutional democratic Monarchy? Yeeee democracy Attachments:
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 21, 2017 14:28:07 GMT
I remember your argument that Hitler was democratically elected, but I don't think most people would take Hitler or Stalin as poster boys for democracy. Surely the point of Hitler is more that he abolished democracy, even if you argue he was elected democratically.
As for Obama....bad as he is, I'd take him over Stalin, Hitler and Henry VIII any day! Because he was constrained by democracy and the rule of law!
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