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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 19, 2017 21:12:44 GMT
As I have made a sticky of the thread on arguments for leaving the E.U., I think it's only fair to also make a sticky thread on the arguments for remaining in the E.U.
After all, sticking with the status quo is perfectly conservative, as is caution and pragmatism!
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2017 11:25:59 GMT
One argument I can think of in favour of remaining (even though I'm not in favour of remaining) is that, although the EU is so often accused of being "neoliberal" and corporatist, it only seems to be an entity of the size of the E.U. that can take on the huge multinationals, as we saw with the Apple tax controversy a few months ago. They also took on Microsoft over anti-competitive practices.
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Post by Séamus on Sept 20, 2017 13:00:43 GMT
One argument I can think of in favour of remaining (even though I'm not in favour of remaining) is that, although the EU is so often accused of being "neoliberal" and corporatist, it only seems to be an entity of the size of the E.U. that can take on the huge multinationals, as we saw with the Apple tax controversy a few months ago. They also took on Microsoft over anti-competitive practices. I'm not sure what the argument for staying might be, but one would have to look at Britain in the next few years and ask themselves honestly whether society is indeed going to change for the better, now that there's no EU to shoulder all the blame of the degradation of society. Is EU cause or symptom? Pope Benedict seemed to think that the more devout nations like Croatia, where citizens were ambivalent about joining, could influence the organisation. Idealistic perhaps. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 20, 2017 13:18:00 GMT
One argument I can think of in favour of remaining (even though I'm not in favour of remaining) is that, although the EU is so often accused of being "neoliberal" and corporatist, it only seems to be an entity of the size of the E.U. that can take on the huge multinationals, as we saw with the Apple tax controversy a few months ago. They also took on Microsoft over anti-competitive practices. I'm not sure what the argument for staying might be, but one would have to look at Britain in the next few years and ask themselves honestly whether society is indeed going to change for the better, now that there's no EU to shoulder all the blame of the degradation of society. Is EU cause or symptom? Pope Benedict seemed to think that the more devout nations like Croatia, where citizens were ambivalent about joining, could influence the organisation. Idealistic perhaps. I'm afraid that Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II were rather similar in one regard; GREAT when it came to defending the doctrine of the Church, naive when it came to politics and economics. |
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Post by Séamus on Sept 21, 2017 7:43:03 GMT
With the emergence of China, India and similar countries, once labeled Developing' it would be necessary to question whether Western Europe is better standing together TO SOME EXTENT.
One thing people dislike about Europe is the bureaucracy they feel is ruling their lives.I can remember Anne Widdecombe some years ago complaining about British bureaucracy in an article. I can imagine she's probably on the anti-EU side, but the point she was making was that other countries, where there's actually more enthusiasm about EU membership don't seen to carry on the same way. She was highlighting an example where STOP signs were still not erected at crossways at danger spots in England because of long delays, because of the relevant government agency didn't have the equipment which safety laws required for men to climb over a ten-foot(or whatever it was) height. She had just returned from Portugal at the time and mentioned that she saw no evidence of safety laws being obeyed anywhere.
One could see during the recent Syrian refugee crisis a tremendous difference in the policies of Germany, on one hand, and Austria,Hungary,Romania on another and even Greece, (who seemed to be almost happy to just let them just sit there)on a third hand, if a third hand is possible. And yet these are all EU member states. Italy sends it's navy out to save boat people, Romanian journalists trip refugees up when they cross the border. Before any anti-EU campaigning it would be necessary to really ask how much of the EUisms are actually within.
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Post by Antaine on Sept 21, 2017 8:20:44 GMT
I thought Austria took the same stance as Germany? They certainly criticised Hungary for not taking any migrants.
In regards the tripping incident, I think that was a Hungarian woman. Also, last I heard, the guy tripped was an ISIS sympathiser. So, probably not a traditional "refugee" (not that most of them are anyway).
Also, the Greeks are far from happy about migrants in their country. There's an increasing support for White Nationalism and even Nazism in Greece, which includes holocaust denial.
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Post by Séamus on Sept 21, 2017 8:54:03 GMT
I thought Austria took the same stance as Germany? They certainly criticised Hungary for not taking any migrants. In regards the tripping incident, I think that was a Hungarian woman. Also, last I heard, the guy tripped was an ISIS sympathiser. So, probably not a traditional "refugee" (not that most of them are anyway). Also, the Greeks are far from happy about migrants in their country. There's an increasing support for White Nationalism and even Nazism in Greece, which includes holocaust denial. She couldn't have really know what the man was involved with. To my memory the journalist had been Romanian, but that part hardly matters. Greece didn't refuse entry and I do remember Austria having some objections, but the main point was: Not every EU member state sees the need to follow any one policy. A friend from a Croatian background was showing me photos last week from her last trip(her parents re-emigrated back after Yugoslavia fell apart), the parliamentary precinct has a Catholic Church which plays an official role, much as a private chapel for a monarchy would. |
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Post by Antaine on Sept 21, 2017 9:41:12 GMT
She couldn't have really know what the man was involved with. No, but that's the problem, isn't it? Nobody wants hundreds of thousands of strangers pouring into their countries, especially when coming from countries whose cultures have a lot of horrendous things associated with them. |
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Post by Séamus on Sept 21, 2017 11:29:35 GMT
She couldn't have really know what the man was involved with. No, but that's the problem, isn't it? Nobody wants hundreds of thousands of strangers pouring into their countries, especially when coming from countries whose cultures have a lot of horrendous things associated with them. That's an argument that should be in the "leave" thread |
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Post by cato on Sept 21, 2017 13:13:38 GMT
One of the arguments for a federal European state as opposed to what we have now is that federalism gives explicit rights to individual states and limits the central government's role. US states in many ways have more powers than most so called independent European states including ourselves. Surrendering our foreign and defence policies to Brussels (while keeping financial powers) would frankly be no real loss in today's world.
Of course there is tension between Washington and individual states but I think the US model is worth looking at rather than the current EU model which seems to have no clear end destination.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Sept 21, 2017 13:20:20 GMT
Surrendering our foreign and defence policies to Brussels (while keeping financial powers) would frankly be no real loss in today's world. But what if the EU drags us into a war? |
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Post by cato on Sept 21, 2017 19:33:55 GMT
It will be short. 48 hours or so. We ll be in it whether we are neutral or not.
The fallout won't stop at Newry or the Irish sea either.
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Post by cato on Mar 22, 2018 20:56:55 GMT
Brexit is going to impact us negatively economically, at least in the short to medium term.
However every single example of crystal ball gazing seems to involve wearing the darkest shade of black sunglasses when it comes to predicting what exactly is coming our way. Yesterday a claim was made the Brexit would mean higher prices for dairy products and milk.... ? I mean this sounds ridiculous. We breed the cattle that produce the milk. Whats next higher Guinness and Tayto Crisp prices?
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Mar 22, 2018 21:23:07 GMT
Brexit is going to impact us negatively economically, at least in the short to medium term. However every single example of crystal ball gazing seems to involve wearing the darkest shade of black sunglasses when it comes to predicting what exactly is coming our way. Yesterday a claim was made the Brexit would mean higher prices for dairy products and milk.... ? I mean this sounds ridiculous. We breed the cattle that produce the milk. Whats next higher Guinness and Tayto Crisp prices? If Mr. Tayto is a victim of Brexit then it wasn't worth it. |
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Post by unfortunately on Apr 28, 2018 13:14:44 GMT
I have a historical interest in the Second World War so I look at the EU as a massive positive over the situation before. The idea of Germany and France going to war now is absurd yet they did just that in living memory. The cooperation fostered by the EU is astounding, hundreds of millions of Europeans live in peace compared with the history of this fragmented war-torn continent.
It has flaws of course but the general idea is I think correct and hopefully we can evolve and improve it.
I also support it because I believe in the long run we need to cooperate and come together as a global civilisation. We are all just people, hopefully other projects like the EU will develop until eventually humanity unifies.
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