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Post by cato on Oct 2, 2017 16:19:26 GMT
I have problems with the various seperatist movements within Europe that seek to break up an existing state and are generally leftist progressive and secular. They are an attack on existing nation states but want to remain within a European Union which seeks far more power. Our local movement Sinn Fein was at least consistent once apon a time in being anti the EU. Would anyone hazard an opinion on why they have abandoned the pursuit of a national sovereignty which the Swiss Norwegians and Icelanders show is possible.
I am sympathetic to the rights of really oppressed peoples who have no nation state and who desire freedom. I am thinking of Tibet invaded by China in the 1950s and ruled with an iron fist ever since and the Kurds who live in Turkey Iraq and Iran. When the various powers initially ignored the Isis unslaught it was Kurdish moslem fighters who defended Christan and minority communities.
I realise their independence isn't very likely on a practical level soon but on the basis of having a legitimate grevience I think their case is much more weighty than the Catalans or the Waalons who are not being persecuted and have a very good standard of living .
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 2, 2017 17:01:02 GMT
I don't have a problem with any territory seeking independence whether it's oppressed or not. However, I can't be inspired or anything but apathetic to the wishy-washy progressive nationalism that seems standard today. Why bother? Is one globalized, multicultural independent state really any different from any other? We are all converging on the same post-national, post-cultural condition if we don't radically change course. I'm particularly unsympathetic to the Catalans since they want to renounce monarchy for republicanism. Real original.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 2, 2017 17:32:54 GMT
So I just passed a medium-sized demonstration in O Connell Street, or rather on its central traffic island, where People Before Profit and Catalonian flags were being waved. I guess it adds to life's pageantry.
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Post by cato on Oct 2, 2017 17:51:57 GMT
I don't have a problem with any territory seeking independence whether it's oppressed or not. However, I can't be inspired or anything but apathetic to the wishy-washy progressive nationalism that seems standard today. Why bother? Is one globalized, multicultural independent state really any different from any other? We are all converging on the same post-national, post-cultural condition if we don't radically change course. I'm particularly unsympathetic to the Catalans since they want to renounce monarchy for republicanism. Real original. It seems to be a lifestyle choice but I agree a rather pointless one . I presume there was no Catalan republic back in the 16th century. I do have an issue with states rights that shatter national unity. I am thinking here of the US confederacy. I would be a fan of federal government giving local regions a high level of autonomy. My sympathies are with the Madrid government although their tactical handling of the affair over recent days was a media disaster. |
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Oct 3, 2017 10:32:33 GMT
It's important to keep in mind the difference between nationalism, where patriots among a people take steps to establish self-government for that people, and liberationism, which is a leftist corruption of nationalism whereby the patriotic instinct is manipulated and funnelled toward the ends of revolutionary Marxism, or its latter day incarnation globalist-progressivism.
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Post by cato on Oct 4, 2017 18:49:28 GMT
It's important to keep in mind the difference between nationalism, where patriots among a people take steps to establish self-government for that people, and liberationism, which is a leftist corruption of nationalism whereby the patriotic instinct is manipulated and funnelled toward the ends of revolutionary Marxism, or its latter day incarnation globalist-progressivism. The various European "national" movements are to a man of the liberationist school. Their main role is to break up or weaken an existing state. On the positive side an EU bogged down with various national crises is unlikely to be able to push its further and closer union agenda either. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 4, 2017 19:35:09 GMT
It's an interesting question in the abstract and one I've pondered over all my life. What is a claim to independence based on? Although I'm an Irish nationalist I've never seen why it should be a given that Ireland be independent, or united. Why shouldn't there be two governments on one island? Why not ten? If Ireland could break away from Britain, why not Ulster from Ireland? I've never been able to answer these questions to my own satisfaction.
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 7, 2017 11:51:06 GMT
Given that many people here seem be very much in favour of self-determination when it comes to the EU, why should the same principle not apply to Catalonia? Surely what is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.
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Post by cato on Oct 7, 2017 14:05:02 GMT
Given that many people here seem be very much in favour of self-determination when it comes to the EU, why should the same principle not apply to Catalonia? Surely what is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander. Thats a very good question. From a specifically conservative angle . I am sympathetic to the notion of a balance of power and respect for existing borders of recognised nation states. Unlike say the 19th century we don't have large ancient nations like Poland being oppressed in any meaningful sense of the word. Breaking up existing states only weakens Europe internationally which is foolish given the unsavoury alternatives on offer today. Secondly there is no clear majority for the referendum which is a stunt designed to take attention away from economic mismanagement by the Catalonian government.The population is split roughly 50 50. The clear mandate you need for independence is not present. This is a dangerous adventure which could end up in blood. |
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Post by Young Ireland on Oct 7, 2017 18:39:06 GMT
Given that many people here seem be very much in favour of self-determination when it comes to the EU, why should the same principle not apply to Catalonia? Surely what is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander. Thats a very good question. From a specifically conservative angle . I am sympathetic to the notion of a balance of power and respect for existing borders of recognised nation states. Unlike say the 19th century we don't have large ancient nations like Poland being oppressed in any meaningful sense of the word. Breaking up existing states only weakens Europe internationally which is foolish given the unsavoury alternatives on offer today. Secondly there is no clear majority for the referendum which is a stunt designed to take attention away from economic mismanagement by the Catalonian government.The population is split roughly 50 50. The clear mandate you need for independence is not present. This is a dangerous adventure which could end up in blood. The thing is that Europhiles would say the same about Brexit, that it weakens Europe and undermines efforts at further unity. Just as Britain has the right to leave the EU (even if I think it imprudent), so Catalonia ought to have the right to secede from Spain. Don't forget that many European "nation states" are really conglomerates of different peoples with similar (but not identical) cultures. I think the solution is to have a legal binding referendum that both sides will agree to respect. Sadly, Spain will most likely never agree to this, nor will the Catalans. |
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Post by cato on Oct 7, 2017 22:34:07 GMT
The UK has a constitutional right to leave the EU. Catalonia has as much constitutional right to leave Spain as Kerry has to leave the Irish Republic.
The Catalonian population is divided down the middle on this issue . There is no clear majority for a split with Spain.
I am no fan of the EU but I prefer it to Communist China throwing its' weight around the global stage as is becoming increasingly evident.
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Post by cato on Oct 8, 2017 11:17:18 GMT
Catalonian independence has joined the list of right on lefty liberal causes in Ireland. RTE seem to think there is only one view on this matter and by and large are ignoring the large pro unity rallies. Just like they pushed Scottish independence , just like they pushed Hilary etc etc
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Oct 8, 2017 13:00:31 GMT
Perhaps they like anything that weakens the nation state and thus increases the power of their beloved European superstate?
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