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Post by kj on Nov 30, 2017 10:14:18 GMT
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Nov 30, 2017 13:54:49 GMT
Its weird how absent Ireland always is from British popular history. Even TV documentaries like Davis Starky's Monarchy series or Simon Schama's deconstructist foolishness have next to nothing to say about key developments in British history pivoting around Irish issues.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Nov 30, 2017 15:22:22 GMT
If anyone fancies pasting the text, I wouldn't mind.
I don't agree that the average English person dislikes or views Ireland as a disobedient colony. Naturally, you'll find Ukip oddballs or the occasional person who might have a grudge, but the overwhelming majority of English people simply don't care. I don't mean that in a negative way, they just don't think about Ireland at all. I remember being on the ferry to Dover a few years ago and overhearing a slightly drunk Irishman saying to an older English gent (with great emphasis and evident patriotism): `But we got you out eventually, didn't we?`, to which the reaction was bemused puzzlement and `Whatever makes you happy, mate`. No one in England cares. As Swift said in Drapier's Letters 300 years ago:
`I have lived long in both kingdoms, as well in country as in town; and therefore take myself to be as well informed as most men, in the dispositions of each people toward the other . . . As to Ireland, they know little more of it than they do of Mexico : farther than that it is a country subject to the King of England, full of bogs, inhabited by wild Irish papists . . . and their general opinion is, that it were better for England if this whole island were sunk into the sea: for they have a tradition, that every forty years there must be a rebellion in Ireland. I have seen the grossest suppositions passed upon them: that the wild Irish were taken in toils; but that in some time they would grow so tame as to eat out of your hands: I have been asked by hundreds, and particularly by my neighbours your tenants at Pepper-harrow, whether I had come from Ireland by sea: and, upon the arrival of an Irishman to a country town, I have known crowds coming about him, and wondering to see him look so much better than themselves.`
The sad fact is that for Ireland the relationship with England is central to its history. For England, Ireland was a backwater that occasionally rose in revolt, only then to be brutally crushed and ignored. The basic pattern of this relationship continues today: I would imagine (not having ever watched Irish TV) that the proportion of British TV in Ireland is much higher than vice versa: I have never, ever seen an Irish TV programme syndicated on the BBC or other channels.
Most of its influence in terms of literature and statesmen on England has overwhelmingly come from the Anglo-Irish rather than the native Gaels. I suspect that if the Irish had converted to Protestantism then they would probably have been much better treated; perhaps in a different timeline the Irish would have become a bit like the Welsh.
This isn't to say that the English don't like the Irish: they don't regard or view them as foreigners. I recently read biographies of Tolkien and Larkin, both of whom were said to have almost never gone abroad. But they both spent a lot of time in Ireland, so they evidently did spend time abroad, but very few English people would regard Ireland as abroad, or as an `other`.
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Post by ClassicalRepublican on Nov 30, 2017 15:47:45 GMT
I recently read biographies of Tolkien and Larkin, both of whom were said to have almost never gone abroad. But they both spent a lot of time in Ireland, so they evidently did spend time abroad, but very few English people would regard Ireland as abroad, or as an `other`. It is a peculiar and in the end maybe even a redeeming thing, that the word 'foreign' has never been the right word for either one of the nations of our archipelago to describe another. |
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Nov 30, 2017 15:57:04 GMT
Johnson is banned from the forum for using the term "other".
Not really.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Nov 30, 2017 16:11:49 GMT
A lot of the difficulty is that the Irish are not different enough for the English to regard as exotic, but they haven't in the past been similar enough for the English to fully absorb. As a result, a lot of English people aren't that aware of Ireland because of its anomalous position, but don't really see the Irish as foreigners. Hence some Irish people getting irritated by references to Eire or Southern Ireland because they see this as patronising or as a denial of Irish nationhood, rather than as a sign of fairly benign ignorance.
It might hearten people to know that the role of Aidan and other Irish missionaries in converting Northumbria is not forgotten in the north-east of England.
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Post by cato on Dec 2, 2017 13:56:04 GMT
It's strange how the British gave inhabitants of the 26 counties free access to the rest of the UK unlike other commonwealth or Imperial subjects. The free travel area was an emigration safety valve for generations of emigrants when the USA placed restrictions on foreign emigration.
Triumphalism goes both ways. Fintan O Toole (of all people) has been crowing on BBC how the boot is now on the other foot due to our EU veto position regarding Brexit. The fact the EU (who shafted us for 30 billion a few years ago) is now using Ireland to do its dirty work for them seems to be lost on some people.
A good Brexit solution for Britian benefits us at the end of the day. We will suffer more than anyone else if the whole process unravels unfortunately.
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Post by cato on Dec 2, 2017 14:59:52 GMT
If anyone fancies pasting the text, I wouldn't mind. I don't agree that the average English person dislikes or views Ireland as a disobedient colony. Naturally, you'll find Ukip oddballs or the occasional person who might have a grudge, but the overwhelming majority of English people simply don't care. I don't mean that in a negative way, they just don't think about Ireland at all. I remember being on the ferry to Dover a few years ago and overhearing a slightly drunk Irishman saying to an older English gent (with great emphasis and evident patriotism): `But we got you out eventually, didn't we?`, to which the reaction was bemused puzzlement and `Whatever makes you happy, mate`. No one in England cares. As Swift said in Drapier's Letters 300 years ago: `I have lived long in both kingdoms, as well in country as in town; and therefore take myself to be as well informed as most men, in the dispositions of each people toward the other . . . As to Ireland, they know little more of it than they do of Mexico : farther than that it is a country subject to the King of England, full of bogs, inhabited by wild Irish papists . . . and their general opinion is, that it were better for England if this whole island were sunk into the sea: for they have a tradition, that every forty years there must be a rebellion in Ireland. I have seen the grossest suppositions passed upon them: that the wild Irish were taken in toils; but that in some time they would grow so tame as to eat out of your hands: I have been asked by hundreds, and particularly by my neighbours your tenants at Pepper-harrow, whether I had come from Ireland by sea: and, upon the arrival of an Irishman to a country town, I have known crowds coming about him, and wondering to see him look so much better than themselves.` The sad fact is that for Ireland the relationship with England is central to its history. For England, Ireland was a backwater that occasionally rose in revolt, only then to be brutally crushed and ignored. The basic pattern of this relationship continues today: I would imagine (not having ever watched Irish TV) that the proportion of British TV in Ireland is much higher than vice versa: I have never, ever seen an Irish TV programme syndicated on the BBC or other channels. Most of its influence in terms of literature and statesmen on England has overwhelmingly come from the Anglo-Irish rather than the native Gaels. I suspect that if the Irish had converted to Protestantism then they would probably have been much better treated; perhaps in a different timeline the Irish would have become a bit like the Welsh. This isn't to say that the English don't like the Irish: they don't regard or view them as foreigners. I recently read biographies of Tolkien and Larkin, both of whom were said to have almost never gone abroad. But they both spent a lot of time in Ireland, so they evidently did spend time abroad, but very few English people would regard Ireland as abroad, or as an `other`. Tolkien was an external examiner for National University of Ireland English exams for quite some time. |
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Post by kj on Dec 2, 2017 15:02:35 GMT
I met an Englishman today who told me he regards Ireland as a "provincial backwater" and that we should still be part of Great Britain. I bit my tongue, just about....
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 2, 2017 15:19:51 GMT
You should have said, "If it's good enough for Britain, I guess it's good enough for us".
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Post by kj on Dec 2, 2017 15:33:24 GMT
He told me "Irish stupidity was undeniable" and that he hates Welsh devolution. Dear oh dear.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 2, 2017 15:49:38 GMT
Welsh devolution is actually surprisingly unpopular in Wales. It barely got 50% of the vote in the 1997 referendum and a lot of Welshmen see it as an unnecessary talking shop.
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 2, 2017 22:49:04 GMT
It's strange how the British gave inhabitants of the 26 counties free access to the rest of the UK unlike other commonwealth or Imperial subjects. The free travel area was an emigration safety valve for generations of emigrants when the USA placed restrictions on foreign emigration. Triumphalism goes both ways. Fintan O Toole (of all people) has been crowing on BBC how the boot is now on the other foot due to our EU veto position regarding Brexit. The fact the EU (who shafted us for 30 billion a few years ago) is now using Ireland to do its dirty work for them seems to be lost on some people. A good Brexit solution for Britian benefits us at the end of the day. We will suffer more than anyone else if the whole process unravels unfortunately. `I send you my sincere good wishes on this day, being well aware of the neighbourly links which hold the people of the Republic of Ireland in close association with my subjects of the United Kingdom. I hold in most grateful memory the services and sacrifices of the men and women of your country who rendered gallant assistance to our cause in the recent war and who made a notable contribution to our victories. I pray that every blessing may be with you today and in the future.` —George R. |
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