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Post by kj on Dec 6, 2017 17:51:31 GMT
Yes, we are in fact fairly healthy in economic terms "really", sorry to disappoint you.
I can see the anti-EU sentiment here is utterly intractable regardless of the facts so I'm politely bowing out of this one.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 6, 2017 18:05:41 GMT
Yes, we are in fact fairly healthy in economic terms "really", sorry to disappoint you. I can see the anti-EU sentiment here is utterly intractable regardless of the facts so I'm politely bowing out of this one. I will be honest and admit my anti-EU animus is indeed pretty intractable. I just don't see how the long-term survival of Ireland as a distinct people is compatible with EU membership, especially freedom of movement. I would have to be convinced that Irexit would be almost apocalyptic to oppose it. And yes, it's true that we are barely a distinct nation as it is, and we can't blame Brussels for our current deracination (which refers to roots rather than race, before anyone gets excited). But any prospect of a revival of Irish nationhood seems impossible in a federal Europe, to me at any rate. |
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Post by Johnson of Beastrider on Dec 6, 2017 18:29:00 GMT
Yes, we are in fact fairly healthy in economic terms "really", sorry to disappoint you. I can see the anti-EU sentiment here is utterly intractable regardless of the facts so I'm politely bowing out of this one. Here's what the EU has to say about Actual Individual Consumption: `Actual individual consumption, abbreviated as AIC, refers to all goods and services actually consumed by households. It encompasses consumer goods and services purchased directly by households, as well as services provided by non-profit institutions and the government for individual consumption (e.g., health and education services). In international comparisons, the term is usually preferred over the narrower concept of household consumption, because the latter is influenced by the extent to which non-profit institutions and general government act as service providers. Although GDP per capita is an important and widely used indicator of countries’ level of economic welfare, consumption per capita may be more useful for comparing the relative welfare of consumers across various countries. AIC per capita is usually highly correlated with GDP per capita, because AIC is, in practice, by far the biggest expenditure component of GDP.` ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Glossary:Actual_individual_consumption_(AIC) As you can see, by the EU's own figures, Ireland has a standard of living lower than nearly every other Western European country and on a par with Italy. The GDP per captia figures are inflated by multi-national corporations. ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/8065733/2-13062017-AP-EN.pdf/edd7c511-ce00-4788-ae99-7d310456d195 |
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Post by cato on Dec 6, 2017 19:24:47 GMT
Other small European nations which are hardly basket cases Norway Iceland and Switzerland have stayed out of the EU but have economic agreements with it which is where the UK is moving to. You can't ignore the EU but you can choose how you relate to it.
The idea our joining the EU has been an exercise in sovereignty is bizarre. Rejoining the UK or joining the USA could be protrayed as sovereign decisions - to extinquish your sovereignty!
Greenland is the only country to date that has left the EU and did so largely because of the damage to her fishing industry. Similarly although we are often reminded of grants to our farmers and other benefits the vast sums in fish catches given to other european countries are rarely entered into the equation.
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Post by cato on Dec 6, 2017 19:34:51 GMT
Yes, we are in fact fairly healthy in economic terms "really", sorry to disappoint you. I can see the anti-EU sentiment here is utterly intractable regardless of the facts so I'm politely bowing out of this one. Although kj has sadly bowed out of this discussion it should be pointed out that a large part of our 60 billion debt was brought about by an Irish government bailing out European banks. This was linked to our economically disasterous membership of the Euro which was a voluntary decision which more canny EU members avoided taking. EU membership has benefited us certainly but we have a total debt of roughly 200 odd billion too, one of the highest on the planet. Tis a very mixed picture... |
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Post by Stephen on Dec 12, 2017 13:58:31 GMT
I am coming to the conclusion that in or out of the European Union the Republic of Ireland is still going to have the same problems.
At least in the EU we are not so attached to the Anglosphere.
Being attached to the EU we have no choice in are future on the other hand (which is an illusion in the Liberal west at the moment I think)
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 12, 2017 14:11:45 GMT
At least in the EU we are not so attached to the Anglosphere. I hear this a lot, but is it really true? It's not political structures that make us all a part of Anglo-American civilization but movies, TV shows, music and fashion. |
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Post by Stephen on Dec 12, 2017 14:28:57 GMT
At least in the EU we are not so attached to the Anglosphere. I hear this a lot, but is it really true? It's not political structures that make us all a part of Anglo-American civilization but movies, TV shows, music and fashion. I agree, it just limits it a bit. |
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Post by assisi on Dec 13, 2017 11:35:46 GMT
At least in the EU we are not so attached to the Anglosphere. I hear this a lot, but is it really true? It's not political structures that make us all a part of Anglo-American civilization but movies, TV shows, music and fashion. Don't forget football. The number of Irish fixated by English football is quite high. My experience is that among males it is often the first topic of conversation when they meet casually. There is a small growth in younger kids to support Barcelona or Real Madrid, but the English teams attract the most fanaticism. |
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Post by Stephen on Dec 13, 2017 15:23:43 GMT
I hear this a lot, but is it really true? It's not political structures that make us all a part of Anglo-American civilization but movies, TV shows, music and fashion. Don't forget football. The number of Irish fixated by English football is quite high. My experience is that among males it is often the first topic of conversation when they meet casually. There is a small growth in younger kids to support Barcelona or Real Madrid, but the English teams attract the most fanaticism. I have never understood the obsession with English clubs. I always laugh when I seeing hardcore republicans that support English Teams. |
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Post by Antaine on Dec 13, 2017 15:56:28 GMT
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Post by Antaine on Dec 13, 2017 15:57:23 GMT
O... it's disabled... sorry. Just some guy making a comment about Irish fans of English football.
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Post by Maolsheachlann on Dec 13, 2017 16:05:41 GMT
"We should be following our own sides".
I wouldn't want him following ME on a dark night, or any night...
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Post by Antaine on Dec 13, 2017 19:36:18 GMT
What do you reckon he's wearing around his neck? Is that a religious thing? Looks like an antique of some kind.
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Post by cato on Dec 14, 2017 7:56:29 GMT
I don't recall if any one has mentioned one obvious reason for our pro European views - cold cash.
Various sectors in Irish life mainly but not exclusively in Agriculture get huge Euro grants.
Politicians and media hacks also benefit directly from the Brussels gravy train which provides lots of lucrative opportunities for personal enrichment. If a particular cause is paying you well you aren't going to be objective about its' objectives and policies. The Act of Union failed to pass the first time it was proposed by the British Parliament but passed the second time due to pots and pots of bribes and titles.
The decision to make Irish an official EU language has created another cosy bureaucratic sinecure were Irish speaking trilingual graduates will be paid handsomely to translate unreadable Eurotrudge into pristine Gaelic. I don't begrudge giving Irish graduates opportunities but this pointless nonsense is cynical materialistic tokenism. Not one extra person will learn Irish (other than the translators) as a result of this pious stunt.
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